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Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

irishtimes.com

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Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#211

Post by eixiepia »

hiptobecubic wrote: post #167
chana_masala wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hospitalised for a month and didn't ask any questions, because I couldn't - I was dying. But if I had more capacity I would have requested vegan options. Once I came to I did refused any non vegan hospital food - which meant I only ate plain boiled potatoes. So I was grateful for the medicines I received then that may have been tested on animals or may have had animal ingredients. But I still advocate and prefe…

I don't get what is so difficult for people to digest in discussions like these. Someone says something like "I try to do the best I can to minimize the unethical treatment of others," and it's a tidal wave of angry finger pointing and fallacious appeals to nature.

> "I try to do the best I can to minimize the unethical treatment of others," and it's a tidal wave of angry finger pointing and fallacious appeals to nature.

Maybe because the vegans people have met, are the obnoxious ones that want to push their eating disorder on everyone else, so they just point out the hypocrisy when appropriate.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#212

Post by graderjs »

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #171
graderjs wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it makes sense to me. Your reading is a little bit uncharitable. Seems almost like you didn't make any effort to understand it, and just rather pretend that it's stupid...Sigh. But I suppose I could have helped you by saying the other part which I think about this: That's why the legal system is so important. We need a way to do these things, that's not about individuals getting revenge. So...you kill Alice, the…

You’re exactly right. In fact resolving this paradox and avoiding the chaos of blood price for crimes committed are part of the themes of every system of law since Hammurabi’s code.

Thanks a lot, that's really kind. It's great to feel my struggle with is backed by thousands of years of other people struggling with it. And your comment helps me feel interested to read more into it! Thank you! :)

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#213

Post by omgitsabird »

renewiltord wrote: post #170
fennecfoxen wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Post complaint (echoed elsewhere) is basically a call for having a social credit score that can say “you’re not a good person, so we’re not going to let the doctors save you.”

We already have that laundered through something else. Like if you’re a drinker you won’t get a liver.

That is not a universal statement[0]. They may get lower priority in many cases, but MELD[1] or a similar model is used to determine who gets priority for liver transplant.

[0] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/destigmatizing...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_for_End-Stage_Liver_Dise...

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#214

Post by rob74 »

achow wrote: post #206
rob74 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and the next step would be "we're not going to treat you for Covid because you're not vaccinated".

This is not same. The non vaccinated are actively choosing to be a danger to people around them. It is like actively carrying concealed unlicensed gun which can silently and anynomously fire at people.

I'm vaccinated myself and basically I have the same opinion as you. But David Bennett also actively chose to stab someone seven times in 1988 - "only" leaving him paralyzed, but probably with the intent to kill him? Ok, he probably served time for that and it was a long time ago, so judicially you can consider him rehabilitated. My argument was that once you refuse to treat (former) criminals, that's a slippery slope. And apparently I was right, since some here seem to consider people who choose not to get vaccinated worse that violent criminals...

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#215

Post by graderjs »

Stupulous wrote: post #209
graderjs wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it makes sense to me. Your reading is a little bit uncharitable. Seems almost like you didn't make any effort to understand it, and just rather pretend that it's stupid...Sigh. But I suppose I could have helped you by saying the other part which I think about this: That's why the legal system is so important. We need a way to do these things, that's not about individuals getting revenge. So...you kill Alice, the…

I don't know if this will be helpful to you, but I'm throwing it out there. In a consequentialist, utilitarian moral system, revenge cannot be a moral good on its own. If a universe where one person gets hurt is worse than a universe where no one gets hurt, a world where two people get hurt must be worse still. So if you're utilitarian, you believe in justice as a means to prevent crime. Punishing people can act as a…

Well this has been a surprising explosion of positivity here on this thread. Some of these comments, look at you, thank you!

That's interesting. And I don't know much about that, but your comment is going to help me look into that, when it's time for me to do so: consequentialists, retributivists, and utilitarianism. Thank you :)

It's an interesting, seemingly two valid perspectives that are in contradiction. Thank you! :)

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#216

Post by lisper »

mlyle wrote: post #36
emptyparadise wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“The key principle in medicine is to treat anyone who is sick, regardless of who they are,” said Arthur Caplan, a bioethics professor at New York University. “We are not in the business of sorting sinners from saints. Crime is a legal matter.” This is so simple and newspapers trying to make it into a matter for debate is actually compromising that.

> This is so simple and newspapers trying to make it into a matter for debate is actually compromising that. Even if one were to consider moral character when allocating organs in general: the researchers needed someone who was sick and likely to die, ineligible for human organ transplant (here, because of severity of condition), and not so sick that there was no chance of success or useful data. So, we're already pi…

Considering a person's criminal record is not the same as considering their moral character.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#217

Post by omgitsabird »

sgjohnson wrote: post #42
benatkin wrote: post #5

His victim's family (yes, really) doesn't like that he was the first to get a heart transplant. https://nypost.com/2022/01/13/historic-pig-heart-recipient-w... PETA doesn't like that anyone got a pig heart transplant. https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/first-heart-transpl...

This is why we’ll never have a rehabilitative justice system. We don’t deserve it. He was convicted in 1988 and sentenced to 10 years behind bars, probably served less so it’s likely that he’s been a free man for 25+ years. It’s been over 30 years since the incident. Give the man a break.

Some want vengeance in place of justice.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#218

Post by krisoft »

hiptobecubic wrote: post #167
chana_masala wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hospitalised for a month and didn't ask any questions, because I couldn't - I was dying. But if I had more capacity I would have requested vegan options. Once I came to I did refused any non vegan hospital food - which meant I only ate plain boiled potatoes. So I was grateful for the medicines I received then that may have been tested on animals or may have had animal ingredients. But I still advocate and prefe…

I don't get what is so difficult for people to digest in discussions like these. Someone says something like "I try to do the best I can to minimize the unethical treatment of others," and it's a tidal wave of angry finger pointing and fallacious appeals to nature.

I don’t get what tidal wave of angry finger pointing you are talking about. All I see is curious people discussing the topic in a civilized manner.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#219

Post by onion2k »

rob74 wrote: post #189
fennecfoxen wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Post complaint (echoed elsewhere) is basically a call for having a social credit score that can say “you’re not a good person, so we’re not going to let the doctors save you.”

...and the next step would be "we're not going to treat you for Covid because you're not vaccinated".

That's different because there's no moral judgement in that position. If you refuse treatment for a condition, even a preventative one, then there's no moral imperative to offer a different treatment later. Doctors did their best to save you, but you didn't do your part. That's on you.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#220

Post by gpm »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #182
Buttons840 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then the next step is to do research showing that pigs that are happy, stress free, and eat a good diet produce organs that are better for transplant. If so, this might be one of the most ethical animal industries.

It would be better if you got to keep the meat rather than letting it go to waste. Then you could indulge in autophagy by proxy.

If we're genetically modifying the pigs to be more like humans, I wonder if there would be health risks with eating the meat - specifically from prions. Similar to those that come from eating humans. Admittedly probably negligible until we modify them a heck of a lot more than we are right now (if they do theoretically exist).
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