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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#231

Post by WalterBright »

rhcom2 wrote: post #49
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. That's a pretty big assertion without evidence especially with America's awful healthcare system and it's smaller safety net than some other countries.

For big evidence, look at the hundreds of thousands of people tramping thousands of miles just for a shot at getting into America.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#232

Post by nopenopenopeno »

barry-cotter wrote: post #187
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also - giving people money is likely to increase the cost of housing. You could give everyone $1 bajillion dollars a month. The cost of housing would go up until a lot of people are still homeless.

> The cost of housing would go up until a lot of people are still homeless That’s true if building enough housing to meet demand continues to be illegal.

The effective purpose of a UBI (why the ruling class likes the idea) is to constrain risky tendencies of a highly financialized economy that depends on a large supply of dirt cheap labor without too much inflation.

With UBI, gainful employment will be an elite luxury only accessible to those with existing wealth. Everyone else will be a reserve army of cheap labor that serves to bare the weight of the financial ebbs and flows of the mighty dollar in the global market, similar to the function of America’s current lower class, but intensified. Rent prices in rural, small city, and slum neighborhoods will be saran wrapped to the UBI amount, and escaping those areas will be practically impossible because rents in the cities will be affordable only to the elite.

In other words, sure, you’re probably right.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#233

Post by elisbce »

mbrodersen wrote: post #190
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

Would you rather be a US homeless person living in the streets or a medieval king?

Nailed it. I don't understand why smart people on this site can believe in such nonsense. The fallacy of being blinded by ideology is such a strong weakness in human beings regardless of intelligence level.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#234

Post by t-3 »

guerrilla wrote: post #181
WalterBright wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America's poor can't travel How do you explain the hundreds of thousands of destitute migrants tramping thousands of miles to get here? They'll get treated for free in emergency rooms. Medieval doctors were worse than no medical care at all, ever. > even movies cost! During the Depression, the movie houses were full of people sleeping, as they were cheaper than a hotel.

> They'll get treated for free in emergency rooms. Um, no, that is not free in the US. You can go into serious debt that way.

Medical debt collection and reporting is much more restricted than other kinds. You can certainly treat it as free very easily if you want to.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#235

Post by dragonwriter »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #201
mbrodersen wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the 40 million Americans living below the poverty line with zero access to health care or dental services are living like kings? Really? May I suggest that you talk to some of them and ask if they feel like Kings/Queens?

Source? Why don't they have medicaid? It covers everyone under the 140% the poverty line.

> Why don't they have medicaid? It covers everyone under the 140% the poverty line.

No, it doesn't; in states that have expanded, it covers up to 138% of the FPL, but in some states for adults without dependent children who are neither aged, blind, disabled, nor pregnant, it covers nothing, and for parents of dependent children the limit is still not 138%.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#236

Post by scollet »

WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

We're in the 21st century.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#237

Post by DarylZero »

aperson_hello wrote: post #184
guerrilla wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The homeless issue in the US is much more of a drug addiction and alcoholism problem than a down on one's luck problem. Something like 90% of the homeless are in that category. Where'd you hear that? I've been watching a lot of Soft White Underbelly, interviews with people on Skid Row, and that doesn't really seem to be the case in general although there are a few [1]. Invisible People also does interviews with hom…

It's more like 50%: https://www.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/programs_campaign... And 30% have severe mental health issues (same source). Treating those issues solves only ~half the problem though (though that's probably 90% of the visible problem). The rest (to your point) is that it's really hard to afford to get a home when you don't have one. I'd blame zoning as the biggest issue here. Boarding homes and micro-…

Surely the trauma of homelessness itself is a severe mental health issue.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#238

Post by DarylZero »

WalterBright wrote: post #225
nemothekid wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very simplistic view of addiction; High functioning addiction is the norm - Purdue made billions creating them. I'm sure - at your workplace in a major city like SF or NY you have worked with people addicted to Benzos, Cocaine, or Alcohol. Most of them will tell you they can "quit any time" (they can't), but are still capable of taking a shower and showing up to work. > Treating a homeless drug addict as a…

> How do you rehab someone who does not have stable shelter? Put them in a drug rehab facility. It's still not an economic problem, it's a drug addiction problem.

"Housing first policies have demonstrably worked in Finland and Austria."

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#239

Post by t-3 »

mbrodersen wrote: post #190
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

Would you rather be a US homeless person living in the streets or a medieval king?

Homeless. In medieval times, everyone was poor, and one person's life had no value to another. In modern times, I can be relatively safe from violence and predation, recieve shelter from compassionate strangers almost anywhere, get medical care for free with government benefits or through the emergency room, and if I'm really doing bad, go to jail and get three hots and a cot. Sounds vastly preferable to dying by 40 from being a violent thug and living in a dirty tiny cold hall.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#240

Post by seanmcdirmid »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #138
willjp wrote: post #135

I'd be much happier if UBI proposals were higher. Living on ~900$/month nowadays would be difficult. 20 years ago I was able to split rent for a tiny concrete windowless-basement-bedroom for 450$/mo, trimmed my grocery/cleaning bill down to 100$/mo by eating nothing but rice, beans, and frozen vegetables, 120$/mo for a phone and internet (which I consider essential), and another ~80$/mo in bus tickets. That's ~750$/m…

The solution to your housing costs isn't increased payments, but cheaper housing. Housing prices are spiraling out of control almost everywhere because we refuse to build more of it through asinine zoning restrictions. High housing costs have such ripple effects on the cost of everything else that it's incredibly frustrating to see everything else but cheaper and more available housing be proposed as a means to help…

There are plenty of places in the USA with loose zoning rules, the problem is not many want to live in those places for some reasons. Why are strong job markets correlated with stricter zoning rules?
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