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Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

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Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#51

Post by gregwebs »

Johnny555 wrote: post #50
gregwebs wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to understand if that is a good or bad profile the way the information is displayed. If you normalize the nutrient by the calories (2000 calories / 158 calories) then it is high in all of the listed nutrients except folate. But still, this is a minority of the vitamins and minerals you need and it is very low in the rest. So it's not an impressive nutrient profile that you would see from a leafy green, an e…

The question was How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains , and I chose the wholest of whole grains I could think of. Though I wouldn't expect grinding into whole wheat flour to significantly reduce the nutrient content, unless baking burns some of the nutrients away. Why wouldn't ancient people have eaten wheat berries, boiling (like in a stew) seems like the easiest way to prepare wheat or other grain like bar…

> Why wouldn't ancient people have eaten wheat berries, boiling (like in a stew) seems like the easiest way to prepare wheat or other grain like barley.

You can probably boil a cup of them and eat them and be fine. But you can find the answer to the question by eating 1000 calories of wheat berries and seeing what happens. It's going to be difficult to digest since we don't have a ruminant digestive tract. Making bread helps further break down the wheat so that it is more digestible. Bread making originally used slow fermentation (instead of quick rising yeast) to maximize this process.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#52

Post by kcplate »

saiya-jin wrote: post #35
kcplate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are different, and due to individual needs and desired outcomes, one size fits all dieting isn’t the best thing. I have type 2 diabetes. For the first 7 years after my diagnosis I stuck to the ADA diet I was told to follow and to use insulin to manage my blood glucose. My insulin requirements increased every year…10-15%. My weight stayed the same, trying to lose was difficult to maintain for a long period, and…

Well, 2 things - you are very much an outlier and general advice usually don't work in such a case. Great you found what works for you. It might not be transferable success to any other human being out there, at least not with some side effects you may not be experiencing. Second point - you confirm OP's claim if I understood correctly - people go from one extreme (with having 170 pounds to lose that's some extreme o…

> you are very much an outlier

Am I? That is interesting as I know others managing their T2 this way. Actually I know more people managing their diabetes this way than any other dietary strategy (short of the tried and true eat whatever in moderation and push insulin to counteract it approach which is basically just resigning yourself to the inevitability of the disease). It could just be that it’s a new enough strategy that it hasn’t received the widespread medical adoption yet in your area. My own doctor advised against me doing it until he saw what it did for me. Then, coincidentally that is right around when the ADA added the low carb dietary strategy to their approval list and now the medical office advises the approach as one they know can create some success. I’d say anyone using diet only to control T2 is an outlier, but using keto or low carb for those folks using diet alone…it’s likely moving to becoming the majority.

As to your second point, yes extreme to extreme, gotcha and thanks for the punctuation on the point too—but that has little to do with the fact that if your body cannot effectively process excess glucose you either need more insulin to handle it, some way to make your insulin more effective, or you need a strategy that creates less glucose that your body needs to handle. Whether you are 170lbs overweight or 1lb overweight and T2 if you limit carb intake (and protein to a degree) you can solve the excess glucose problem.

I’d also argue that considering just about every foodstuff in my local supermarket has some form of keto alternative marketed alongside it and for at least the last 4 years, we have moved away from extreme and into the realm of yet another mainstream eating strategy that has been adopted by the public.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#53

Post by Flankk »

JPKab wrote: post #31
nradov wrote: post #2

I'm always leery when I see a paper with a lead author from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. This is a political advocacy organization focused on pushing their policies rather than focusing on evidence based medicine. That doesn't necessarily make this study wrong but they have been known to exaggerate the evidence in favor of plant-based diets.

The ridiculously biased nature of the paper was readily apparent when opening it. I've followed ketogenic diets in the past, but was also a vegan for 3 years, and a vegetarian for 5. I'm super open-minded and results based when it comes to diet. The opening paragraphs immediately launched into direct attacks on nutrient deficiencies which can be easily remedied on a CARNIVORE diet, but which don't actually exist on a…

PETA is a voluntary psych ward. Most of its members have a god complex. They are on a mentally ill cruscade to make the world perfect. Reminds me of Hitler.

https://petakillsanimals.com/

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#54

Post by kcplate »

saiya-jin wrote: post #35
kcplate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are different, and due to individual needs and desired outcomes, one size fits all dieting isn’t the best thing. I have type 2 diabetes. For the first 7 years after my diagnosis I stuck to the ADA diet I was told to follow and to use insulin to manage my blood glucose. My insulin requirements increased every year…10-15%. My weight stayed the same, trying to lose was difficult to maintain for a long period, and…

Well, 2 things - you are very much an outlier and general advice usually don't work in such a case. Great you found what works for you. It might not be transferable success to any other human being out there, at least not with some side effects you may not be experiencing. Second point - you confirm OP's claim if I understood correctly - people go from one extreme (with having 170 pounds to lose that's some extreme o…

> just 1 single rule and not a set of them, it should be: eat less

That is the dirty little secret of keto—higher fat diets tends to trigger the satiety faster and people tend to eat less calories because of it. People assume keto means things like “all you can eat bacon” and think that people on keto are packing away 10k calories a day of bacon. Try and eat a pound of bacon...bet you can’t.

My calories were cut in half when I first moved to keto, and I never ever felt hungry which is way way different than every other calorie restricted diet I ever attempted.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#55

Post by Johnny555 »

gregwebs wrote: post #51
Johnny555 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question was How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains , and I chose the wholest of whole grains I could think of. Though I wouldn't expect grinding into whole wheat flour to significantly reduce the nutrient content, unless baking burns some of the nutrients away. Why wouldn't ancient people have eaten wheat berries, boiling (like in a stew) seems like the easiest way to prepare wheat or other grain like bar…

> Why wouldn't ancient people have eaten wheat berries, boiling (like in a stew) seems like the easiest way to prepare wheat or other grain like barley. You can probably boil a cup of them and eat them and be fine. But you can find the answer to the question by eating 1000 calories of wheat berries and seeing what happens. It's going to be difficult to digest since we don't have a ruminant digestive tract. Making bre…

Why would I eat 1000 calories of any food? I wouldn't eat 14 slices of bread or 1.5 lbs of chicken breasts either. But I do eat normal quantities of boiled grains pretty regularly in stews or on a salad.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#56

Post by kcplate »

Byteflux wrote: post #28
kcplate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are different, and due to individual needs and desired outcomes, one size fits all dieting isn’t the best thing. I have type 2 diabetes. For the first 7 years after my diagnosis I stuck to the ADA diet I was told to follow and to use insulin to manage my blood glucose. My insulin requirements increased every year…10-15%. My weight stayed the same, trying to lose was difficult to maintain for a long period, and…

Your anecdote is supported by clinical evidence. Virta Health has been conducting clinical studies over the past few years on treating T2D with nutritional ketosis with a high rate of success in putting T2D into remission leading to many patients coming off of their meds and insulin entirely. The ADA has quietly acknowledged these studies in their Standard of Care and more recently has adopted a position of endorsing…

> something about the ADA and their relationship with pharmaceutical companies just rubs me wrong

Well when your go to published eating strategy for 35 years is designed to maximize the amount of insulin that is to pumped into bodies…it’s hard not to notice coincidences.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#57

Post by anonygler »

saiya-jin wrote: post #35
kcplate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are different, and due to individual needs and desired outcomes, one size fits all dieting isn’t the best thing. I have type 2 diabetes. For the first 7 years after my diagnosis I stuck to the ADA diet I was told to follow and to use insulin to manage my blood glucose. My insulin requirements increased every year…10-15%. My weight stayed the same, trying to lose was difficult to maintain for a long period, and…

Well, 2 things - you are very much an outlier and general advice usually don't work in such a case. Great you found what works for you. It might not be transferable success to any other human being out there, at least not with some side effects you may not be experiencing. Second point - you confirm OP's claim if I understood correctly - people go from one extreme (with having 170 pounds to lose that's some extreme o…

Rather dismissive. The Keto subreddit is overflowing with success stories, to the point that they’re spammy. Keto is a resounding weight loss success.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#58

Post by daydream »

ericmcer wrote: post #39
reedjosh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I built/kept a bunch of muscle and muscle tissue taxes your system What!? In what world is muscle not a good thing. Muscle mass is even a measure of health in aging that fairly well predicts longevity.

Muscle is good to a point, it is very easy in our high calorie high protein diet to put on way too much muscle. It is little better than fat, especially with the way heavy weightlifting distributes it.

Sorry. This is just flat out wrong.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#59

Post by kcplate »

dawnerd wrote: post #42
Melatonic wrote: post #7

The big problem I have with the Keto diet is twofold: 1. People rarely compare it directly to something like a "Real Food" diet - they go from a lot of processed crap to mostly non processed stuff on the outside of the grocery store and then see huge benefits. But I suspect if they just switched to a Real Food diet in the first place they would see most of the same benefits. 2. It completely leaves out almost all leg…

When I go on keto I eat a TON of processed foods and take supplements. Keto diets help people, end of story. I wouldn't have been able to lose weight otherwise, I've tried. Keto for me was almost cheating. There's some pretty great products out there with a low GI or net zero carbs but they're all pretty highly processed.

It’s certainly possible to go this route and I will admit to the occasional indulgence (generally it’s them damed keto ice cream bars).

But I found I ate less processed food to prior to keto since my main focus was meat, eggs, and cruciferous veggies.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#60

Post by kcplate »

Johnny555 wrote: post #10
aimatt wrote: post #9

Something about this article is just fishy to me. "Very-low-carbohydrate diets may lack vitamins, minerals, fiber, and phytochemicals found in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains (6–8). " How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains? "However, findings from a recent trial by Hall et al. suggest that a low-fat vegan diet (10% energy from fat) may be more effective than a ketogenic diet in suppressing appetite (27).…

How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains? A quarter-cup serving of wheat berries contains approximately: 158 calories 33 grams carbohydrates 7 grams protein 1 gram fat 6 grams dietary fiber 2 milligrams manganese (97 percent DV) 34 micrograms selenium (49 percent DV) 0.25 milligram thiamine (16 percent DV) 159 milligrams phosphorus (16 percent DV) 60 milligrams magnesium (15 percent DV) 2.8 milligrams niacin (14…

TIL: I generally eat less carbs in two days than what is in a quarter cup of wheat berries.
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