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Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

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Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#21

Post by Byteflux »

reedjosh wrote: post #16

As I've known it it's not really a ketogenic diet if your taking in >20g carbs per day. > Ketogenic diets can induce weight loss (20–23). In a 2020 meta-analysis of 38 studies lasting 6–12 months and including 6,499 participants, low-carbohydrate diets, defined here as Even `classic keto` as defined in their table allows for 10% of your calories from carbohydrates. If eating 2kcals/day, that's 50g of carbs. In no way…

<20g is just the threshold that's guaranteed to put most people into ketosis, but the exact number will vary by person. <50g is also a common threshold that works for many people. I'm not an expert on what qualifies as a "ketogenic diet" but personally I would say that if your diet consistently leaves you in a state of ketosis, then it's ketogenic. I would hope that any study on ketogenic eating is actually measuring blood ketones to determine this.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#22

Post by kcplate »

Melatonic wrote: post #7

The big problem I have with the Keto diet is twofold: 1. People rarely compare it directly to something like a "Real Food" diet - they go from a lot of processed crap to mostly non processed stuff on the outside of the grocery store and then see huge benefits. But I suspect if they just switched to a Real Food diet in the first place they would see most of the same benefits. 2. It completely leaves out almost all leg…

People are different, and due to individual needs and desired outcomes, one size fits all dieting isn’t the best thing.

I have type 2 diabetes. For the first 7 years after my diagnosis I stuck to the ADA diet I was told to follow and to use insulin to manage my blood glucose. My insulin requirements increased every year…10-15%. My weight stayed the same, trying to lose was difficult to maintain for a long period, and when you have a lot of weight to lose…you need to maintain caloric restriction for a long period.

5 years ago I switched to keto. Within 4 months I was off all diabetes meds and have been off since. I have lost 170lbs. Does the diet alone give me all the nutrition I need? Nope. So I take a supplement or two to get what I need. That is better for me and my blood sugar maintenance than consuming beans and root vegetables. Keto enabled the change I needed to make, because one thing the diet does well is create satiety, which ultimately leads to caloric restriction which led to weight loss which led to the glucose control I needed to stop damaging my body.

Here is the main thing though. Eating the ADA diet and using insulin to control my blood glucose was ultimately a losing game. My life expectancy was likely lower eating that ADA diet than eating keto, thanks to all the keto created benefits. Diabetes might have killed me at 65, keto might kill me at 75. I’ll take the 10 years and whatever issues keto decides to deal to me.

This is just my individual story.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#23

Post by 1_player »

toast0 wrote: post #15
ericmcer wrote: post #11

Having tried all these diets, a low protein and low fat vegan diet had the most dramatic weight loss without crazy cravings. Keto was good but the huge amount of protein meant I built/kept a bunch of muscle and muscle tissue taxes your system. In retrospect a high protein low fat/cal diet is a recipe for intense cravings and extremely difficult weight loss.

> In retrospect a high protein low fat/cal diet is a recipe for intense cravings and extremely difficult weight loss. Keto is supposed to be high fat, very low carb, reasonable protein. As another poster named it, medical keto, is hard to follow because of the high fat. Popular keto is still challenging.

> hard to follow because of the high fat

It really isn't, it's just a matter of adapting your taste buds. If you're used to fries and muffins daily, yeah it can be hard, but as someone from Southern Europe used to snacking on salami and cheese and butter, reaching 80% calories from fat isn't hard at all, especially considering that fat is more than 2x more calorie dense per gram than protein and carbs, so you don't need that much of it. A steak with a little butter gets you there easily.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#24

Post by JPKab »

_0w8t wrote: post #19
Melatonic wrote: post #7

The big problem I have with the Keto diet is twofold: 1. People rarely compare it directly to something like a "Real Food" diet - they go from a lot of processed crap to mostly non processed stuff on the outside of the grocery store and then see huge benefits. But I suspect if they just switched to a Real Food diet in the first place they would see most of the same benefits. 2. It completely leaves out almost all leg…

And then the whole claim that keto was a diet of ancient people before the agricalture looked more like a fantasy. Modern hunter-gatherets in Africa get at least 50% percent of their calories from starchy vegetables and honey with latter supplying at least 10% of calories. This became apparent after scientists measured it rather than guessing based on earlier observations.

Modern hunter-gatherers in AFRICA.

Do you think the Inuit, or hunter-gatherers in northern Europe or Asia were getting 50% of their calories from non-animal sources? You know the answer is absolutely not.

I don't want to get into an annoying, repetitive ideological flame war here. What I can tell you is that depending on the climate and the length of the winters, as well as the soil, tribes had vastly different diet compositions. There are numerous studies on this.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#25

Post by phonypc »

aimatt wrote: post #9

Something about this article is just fishy to me. "Very-low-carbohydrate diets may lack vitamins, minerals, fiber, and phytochemicals found in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains (6–8). " How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains? "However, findings from a recent trial by Hall et al. suggest that a low-fat vegan diet (10% energy from fat) may be more effective than a ketogenic diet in suppressing appetite (27).…

>How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains?

In whole grains, plenty. Refined grains are fortified/enriched in an attempt to bring their nutritional value closer to the unrefined state.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#26

Post by rkk3 »

_0w8t wrote: post #19
Melatonic wrote: post #7

The big problem I have with the Keto diet is twofold: 1. People rarely compare it directly to something like a "Real Food" diet - they go from a lot of processed crap to mostly non processed stuff on the outside of the grocery store and then see huge benefits. But I suspect if they just switched to a Real Food diet in the first place they would see most of the same benefits. 2. It completely leaves out almost all leg…

And then the whole claim that keto was a diet of ancient people before the agricalture looked more like a fantasy. Modern hunter-gatherets in Africa get at least 50% percent of their calories from starchy vegetables and honey with latter supplying at least 10% of calories. This became apparent after scientists measured it rather than guessing based on earlier observations.

I don't think that has ever been a claim of the Keto Diet, I think you are confusing it with the Paleo(lithic man) diet which is similar but distinct.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#27

Post by gfosco »

reedjosh wrote: post #16

As I've known it it's not really a ketogenic diet if your taking in >20g carbs per day. > Ketogenic diets can induce weight loss (20–23). In a 2020 meta-analysis of 38 studies lasting 6–12 months and including 6,499 participants, low-carbohydrate diets, defined here as Even `classic keto` as defined in their table allows for 10% of your calories from carbohydrates. If eating 2kcals/day, that's 50g of carbs. In no way…

Later on in the paper, they rely on a bunch of trials and specify a low-carb diet as Yeah, I never see a good analysis of a strict keto diet... First two weeks are incidental carbs only, as close to 0 as possible.. after that maybe 20 a day, 30 a day, for months.

I'm on day 56 right now and down 21 pounds.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#28

Post by Byteflux »

kcplate wrote: post #22
Melatonic wrote: post #7

The big problem I have with the Keto diet is twofold: 1. People rarely compare it directly to something like a "Real Food" diet - they go from a lot of processed crap to mostly non processed stuff on the outside of the grocery store and then see huge benefits. But I suspect if they just switched to a Real Food diet in the first place they would see most of the same benefits. 2. It completely leaves out almost all leg…

People are different, and due to individual needs and desired outcomes, one size fits all dieting isn’t the best thing. I have type 2 diabetes. For the first 7 years after my diagnosis I stuck to the ADA diet I was told to follow and to use insulin to manage my blood glucose. My insulin requirements increased every year…10-15%. My weight stayed the same, trying to lose was difficult to maintain for a long period, and…

Your anecdote is supported by clinical evidence. Virta Health has been conducting clinical studies over the past few years on treating T2D with nutritional ketosis with a high rate of success in putting T2D into remission leading to many patients coming off of their meds and insulin entirely.

The ADA has quietly acknowledged these studies in their Standard of Care and more recently has adopted a position of endorsing low-carb, but they're still ignoring keto despite the clinical evidence.

As you said, the ADA's guidelines are focused on managing T2D as a progressive disease which inevitably leads to increased medical requirements over time. Although T2D remains incurable, there's enough clinical evidence to conclude that for many people it's treatable with nutritional ketosis.

I like to think I'm a rational person and don't subscribe to conspiracy theories in general, but something about the ADA and their relationship with pharmaceutical companies just rubs me wrong. To my knowledge, their largest financial sponsor is Eli Lilly which also happens to be one of the world's largest manufacturers of diabetes drugs, including insulin.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#29

Post by beebmam »

rkk3 wrote: post #26
_0w8t wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then the whole claim that keto was a diet of ancient people before the agricalture looked more like a fantasy. Modern hunter-gatherets in Africa get at least 50% percent of their calories from starchy vegetables and honey with latter supplying at least 10% of calories. This became apparent after scientists measured it rather than guessing based on earlier observations.

I don't think that has ever been a claim of the Keto Diet, I think you are confusing it with the Paleo(lithic man) diet which is similar but distinct.

This reads like a cult member wrote it. It's hard to take you seriously when you (absurdly) state that some diet makes claims.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#30

Post by rkk3 »

Melatonic wrote: post #7

The big problem I have with the Keto diet is twofold: 1. People rarely compare it directly to something like a "Real Food" diet - they go from a lot of processed crap to mostly non processed stuff on the outside of the grocery store and then see huge benefits. But I suspect if they just switched to a Real Food diet in the first place they would see most of the same benefits. 2. It completely leaves out almost all leg…

> 1. People rarely compare it directly to something like a "Real Food" diet

Most people in the US aren't eating a "Real food" diet, which is actually where a lot of studies benefits come from because the baseline is so unhealthy - it's about what you're not/stop eating as much as it is about what you are eating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfQtq4YTPso&ab_channel=Stanf...

> 2. It completely leaves out almost all legumes and many root vegetables and gourds which are both hugely beneficial and also some of the cheapest / most sustainable calories out there. There is a reason humans domesticated gourds early on - they are easy as hell to grow, tasty, healthy, balanced, and the shells often also provide other benefits.

Like the article says many people are on keto diet for cancer or neuro-degenerative conditions that potentially benefit from being in a state of ketosis & you can't do that even eating healthy nutrient carb sources like legumes and root vegetables.

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