Earlier quoted context omitted.
The NY Times and Washington Post also had silly articles that presented this as a serious debate.
I don't remember WaPo's article, but the NYT article that I read didn't mention any ethical issues or the recipient's past[1]. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/10/health/heart-transplant-p...
Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
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Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe I can add some nuance as a vegan (I'm vegan btw, and I use Arch btw). I think that it's amazing that this is possible, but where it seems unethical to me is that there still are many other ways we could route heart transplants from willing humans. I think the only way I'd find this ethical is if the pig died from natural causes. But that probably complicates using the heart. If a pig is killed for food and then…
I'm curious how you'd extract a human heart from a willing human donor without killing the donor. I'm also curious how you'd similarly prepare the human donor in any way to meaningfully reduce the chances of rejection, like genetic modification.
Organ donors
Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe I can add some nuance as a vegan (I'm vegan btw, and I use Arch btw). I think that it's amazing that this is possible, but where it seems unethical to me is that there still are many other ways we could route heart transplants from willing humans. I think the only way I'd find this ethical is if the pig died from natural causes. But that probably complicates using the heart. If a pig is killed for food and then…
I'm curious how you'd extract a human heart from a willing human donor without killing the donor. I'm also curious how you'd similarly prepare the human donor in any way to meaningfully reduce the chances of rejection, like genetic modification.
Am I reading this wrong? Isn't this how you'd do it?
> As of 2018, the most common procedure is to take a functioning heart, with or without both lungs, from a recently deceased organ donor (brain death is the standard) and implant it into the patient. [1]
Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The key principle in medicine is to treat anyone who is sick, regardless of who they are. The victims family is saying “Our principle is that people who stab Ed should not get a heart, therefore David should not get a heart.” The doctor is saying “Our principle is that we don’t use the patient’s past violence or convictions to determine whether they should get a heart or not, so the stabbing doesn’t disqualify Davi…
The first argument is a slippery slope. What crimes disqualify you from getting a heart? How much repentance do you have to go through the get qualified back? Who judges that?
You’d can’t just have a list of disqualifying crimes. You’d need to balance things out a proper social credit score.
With an indirect death penalty attached, yes. Can’t think of how this could go wrong at alllllllllllll
Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree. This brings us back to tribal times; kill the animal or starve, or in this case, kill the animal or die of a heart attack.
Maybe you could at least address the points I gave instead of plainly ignoring them and repeating the same argument? I already addressed this - we aren't in tribal times. We can even grow organs in the lab. We can also coordinate complex routes to securing organ donations. There are so many available options. And again, if a heart from a pig that died naturally could be found, I'd be all for it. I think it adds a mor…
There is a shortage of organs. There are not enough. Lab grown is not an option yet.
Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm carrying a concealed weapon right now. (It's a S&W .380 M&P.) I have a card in my wallet that makes this completely legal in the state where I live, and in 35 other states. I'm always amazed at the culture clash between the anti-gun lobby (including the press), and people who choose to exercise an important constitutional right. A gun is just a tool. It can be used for both good and bad purposes. Also, the NY Pos…
Given your expertise, maybe you know, what is 'openly carrying a concealed weapon'? In particular, ‘openly’
There is "open carry" and "concealed carry", but I've never heard the usage you are asking about. I suppose that if one had a knife sheathed and attached to their belt, but was wearing a jacket that concealed the knife, that might qualify.
I know of people who were legally openly carrying a firearm and got convicted of carrying a concealed weapon because of a jacket. The laws vary by state, so such a thing is possible in some states.
Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe I can add some nuance as a vegan (I'm vegan btw, and I use Arch btw). I think that it's amazing that this is possible, but where it seems unethical to me is that there still are many other ways we could route heart transplants from willing humans. I think the only way I'd find this ethical is if the pig died from natural causes. But that probably complicates using the heart. If a pig is killed for food and then…
As a vegan what is your view on testing drugs on animals and do you refuse to use those medicines?
I was hospitalised for a month and didn't ask any questions, because I couldn't - I was dying. But if I had more capacity I would have requested vegan options. Once I came to I did refused any non vegan hospital food - which meant I only ate plain boiled potatoes.
So I was grateful for the medicines I received then that may have been tested on animals or may have had animal ingredients. But I still advocate and prefer medicines to not be tested on animals and to not contain animal ingredients. I think we have a vast amount of untapped technology that could avoid that.
Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#78I am not a vegan but this is unethical
Maybe I can add some nuance as a vegan (I'm vegan btw, and I use Arch btw). I think that it's amazing that this is possible, but where it seems unethical to me is that there still are many other ways we could route heart transplants from willing humans. I think the only way I'd find this ethical is if the pig died from natural causes. But that probably complicates using the heart. If a pig is killed for food and then…
> The patient, David Bennett, a 57-year-old Maryland handyman, knew there was no guarantee the experiment would work but he was dying, ineligible for a human heart transplant and had no other option, his son told The Associated Press.
> There’s a huge shortage of human organs donated for transplant, driving scientists to try to figure out how to use animal organs instead.
> Dr. Bartley Griffith, who performed the surgery, said the patient’s condition — heart failure and an irregular heartbeat — made him ineligible for a human heart transplant or a heart pump.
- https://apnews.com/article/pig-heart-transplant-6651614cb9d7...
Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#79His victim's family (yes, really) doesn't like that he was the first to get a heart transplant. https://nypost.com/2022/01/13/historic-pig-heart-recipient-w... PETA doesn't like that anyone got a pig heart transplant. https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/first-heart-transpl...
>“The key principle in medicine is to treat anyone who is sick, regardless of who they are,” said Arthur Caplan, a bioethics professor at New York University. “We are not in the business of sorting sinners from saints. Crime is a legal matter.” This is so simple and newspapers trying to make it into a matter for debate is actually compromising that.
Is there a limit to this impartiality? Should we have saved Hitlers life with a breakthrough transplant?
Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The key principle in medicine is to treat anyone who is sick, regardless of who they are. The victims family is saying “Our principle is that people who stab Ed should not get a heart, therefore David should not get a heart.” The doctor is saying “Our principle is that we don’t use the patient’s past violence or convictions to determine whether they should get a heart or not, so the stabbing doesn’t disqualify Davi…
> Neither party can offer a valid argument as to why their principle is true, because both of their principles are normative. The majority of ethicists agree that normative statements can express true statements. But the positive/normative distinction is also not important here: medical ethics is a prescriptive and lexical ethics, one that you must follow if you are to practice medicine. It's not interested in what a…
> The majority of ethicists agree that normative statements can express true statements.
What do you think is a good candidate for such a statement? My impression is that arguments must proceed from axioms, positive axioms aren’t helpful because the statement is normative and normative axioms just reproduce the issue.
> medical ethics is a prescriptive and lexical ethics, one that you must follow if you are to practice medicine.
What is the meaning of “lexical ethics”? Google didn’t return anything helpful.
I believe the essence of the claim you are making is that, “There is a powerful enforcement body that will only permit doctors to practice medicine if they do no harm and render treatment in accordance with their means.” I think this a positive claim about human behavior, a proposition potentially belonging to the set of sociological or historical facts.
I suspect the family is talking about the way things ought to be, “Heart transplants should go to good people”. And you are pointing out that the doctors are responding with a positive claim, “That’s not what we do here.”?