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Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

irishtimes.com

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Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#51

Post by chana_masala »

thehappypm wrote: post #45
chana_masala wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I can add some nuance as a vegan (I'm vegan btw, and I use Arch btw). I think that it's amazing that this is possible, but where it seems unethical to me is that there still are many other ways we could route heart transplants from willing humans. I think the only way I'd find this ethical is if the pig died from natural causes. But that probably complicates using the heart. If a pig is killed for food and then…

I disagree. This brings us back to tribal times; kill the animal or starve, or in this case, kill the animal or die of a heart attack.

Maybe you could at least address the points I gave instead of plainly ignoring them and repeating the same argument? I already addressed this - we aren't in tribal times. We can even grow organs in the lab. We can also coordinate complex routes to securing organ donations. There are so many available options. And again, if a heart from a pig that died naturally could be found, I'd be all for it. I think it adds a more to control than already a trans species heart, but that'd be my ideal.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#52

Post by pkaye »

drenvuk wrote: post #21

I'm a full on speciesist. let's do more of this. since we're already eating them I feel like this even a more reasonable usage of their lives. can we do kidneys next please? we can basically shut down most dialysis clinics after that.

They did so a pig to human kidney transplant recently however it was on a brain dead man as an initial test. Probably soon it be on a living patient. As a person on a kidney transplant waitlist, it given me some hope for the future.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-01-pig-to-human-transpla...

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#54

Post by woodruffw »

jessriedel wrote: post #35
foo92691 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The New York Post (NY Post) is a conservative[8] daily tabloid newspaper published in New York City. The Post also operates NYPost.com, the celebrity gossip site PageSix.com, and the entertainment site Decider.com." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post

The NY Times and Washington Post also had silly articles that presented this as a serious debate.

I don't remember WaPo's article, but the NYT article that I read didn't mention any ethical issues or the recipient's past[1].

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/10/health/heart-transplant-p...

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#55

Post by anonymousiam »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #20
benatkin wrote: post #5

His victim's family (yes, really) doesn't like that he was the first to get a heart transplant. https://nypost.com/2022/01/13/historic-pig-heart-recipient-w... PETA doesn't like that anyone got a pig heart transplant. https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/first-heart-transpl...

> was charged with intent to murder and openly carrying a concealed weapon, among other charges. I know what a concealed weapon is, but what is 'openly carrying a concealed weapon'?

I'm carrying a concealed weapon right now. (It's a S&W .380 M&P.) I have a card in my wallet that makes this completely legal in the state where I live, and in 35 other states. I'm always amazed at the culture clash between the anti-gun lobby (including the press), and people who choose to exercise an important constitutional right.

A gun is just a tool. It can be used for both good and bad purposes.

Also, the NY Post article says; "To some families, it’s an outrage that a person convicted of a violent crime would be awarded an organ others so desperately need. But doctors often disagree and there are no laws prohibiting someone with a criminal history from receiving a transplant."

Elsewhere in the same article, it says; "A jury found him guilty of battery and carrying a concealed weapon but acquitted him of of intent to murder. Washington County Circuit Judge Daniel Moylan called the stabbing a case of “extreme violence” and sentenced him to 10 years behind bars."

The facts of the crime are not given, but apparently a jury did not believe he intended to kill, and since the victim did not die right away, there was no killing to prosecute.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#56

Post by pkaye »

chana_masala wrote: post #38
sydthrowaway wrote: post #27

I am not a vegan but this is unethical

Maybe I can add some nuance as a vegan (I'm vegan btw, and I use Arch btw). I think that it's amazing that this is possible, but where it seems unethical to me is that there still are many other ways we could route heart transplants from willing humans. I think the only way I'd find this ethical is if the pig died from natural causes. But that probably complicates using the heart. If a pig is killed for food and then…

As a vegan what is your view on testing drugs on animals and do you refuse to use those medicines?

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#57

Post by burrows »

carrolldunham wrote: post #9
benatkin wrote: post #5

His victim's family (yes, really) doesn't like that he was the first to get a heart transplant. https://nypost.com/2022/01/13/historic-pig-heart-recipient-w... PETA doesn't like that anyone got a pig heart transplant. https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/first-heart-transpl...

Why are these points of view (especially the first) worth noting? They are quoted saying the heart 'should have gone to someone more deserving'. Yes, the precious, rare pig heart. It would be more fitting to look on this guy as a Guinea pig, so if he is a bad guy to you, who better to use?

I’m not familiar with the details of this case, but I can imagine that the time and expertise of physicians capable of doing the surgery is scarce. What do you say to the claim that, “The time and resources including the surgeons and the pig heart should be put to use helping a more deserving person.”

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#58

Post by CamperBob2 »

burrows wrote: post #50
emptyparadise wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“The key principle in medicine is to treat anyone who is sick, regardless of who they are,” said Arthur Caplan, a bioethics professor at New York University. “We are not in the business of sorting sinners from saints. Crime is a legal matter.” This is so simple and newspapers trying to make it into a matter for debate is actually compromising that.

> The key principle in medicine is to treat anyone who is sick, regardless of who they are. The victims family is saying “Our principle is that people who stab Ed should not get a heart, therefore David should not get a heart.” The doctor is saying “Our principle is that we don’t use the patient’s past violence or convictions to determine whether they should get a heart or not, so the stabbing doesn’t disqualify Davi…

People who commit crimes should not get a heart can be transformed to Only people who have not committed crimes should get replacement hearts. The problem is, who hasn't committed crimes? Which crimes count? Who decides?

That question makes the more-topical issue When the ER fills up, should unvaccinated people be treated by administering carbon monoxide in the hospital parking garage? look trivial to resolve, in comparison.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#59

Post by woodruffw »

burrows wrote: post #50
emptyparadise wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“The key principle in medicine is to treat anyone who is sick, regardless of who they are,” said Arthur Caplan, a bioethics professor at New York University. “We are not in the business of sorting sinners from saints. Crime is a legal matter.” This is so simple and newspapers trying to make it into a matter for debate is actually compromising that.

> The key principle in medicine is to treat anyone who is sick, regardless of who they are. The victims family is saying “Our principle is that people who stab Ed should not get a heart, therefore David should not get a heart.” The doctor is saying “Our principle is that we don’t use the patient’s past violence or convictions to determine whether they should get a heart or not, so the stabbing doesn’t disqualify Davi…

> Neither party can offer a valid argument as to why their principle is true, because both of their principles are normative.

The majority of ethicists agree that normative statements can express true statements.

But the positive/normative distinction is also not important here: medical ethics is a prescriptive and lexical ethics, one that you must follow if you are to practice medicine. It's not interested in what any individual does thinks should or shouldn't be the case: you do no harm and you always render treatment in accordance with your means.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#60

Post by kamaal »

oneepic wrote: post #4

Would have been interesting to hear what the feeling was like 2 weeks later (ie lethargic? walking alright? breathing well?) TFA only says he's alive "with his new heart beating soundly", which could mean a lot of things.

My dad took weeks(like more than 2 months) to back to being some what confidently ok'ish with things after his coronary artery bypass graft. He needed physiotherapy. His knees were weak and he needed a knee replacement only an year later. But in the after math of bypass surgery I had to hold his hand and make him walk, even feed and took him to rest room personally, I would even bathe him.

It took like ages to let him confidently use the toilet on his own. And I'd always keep the toilet door open 'Just in case'.

The Knee replacement a year later was obviously more brutal given the bypass was only an year back and we were peak in COVID times. He was infected, and I had sleep on the road as I caught it too(couldn't go home out of fear of infecting the family). Pretty much saw hell in bare form during that(weeks in anxiety, walking in COVID wards and suffering every single minute), and of course that recovery took months, as the drugs they gave him caused a huge spillover of issues.

It might just be that as a I child I felt more for my father.

But let me tell you major surgeries like bypass grafts, or knee replacements are nightmarish experiences, even more more so in the COVID times today.

P.S: This is in Bangalore, India.

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