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Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

thezbook.com

201–210 of 395 posts

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#201
I've never known any serious work to actually get done without people "going dark" to actually accomplish it.

The constant statusing that doesn't allow one four hours of uninterrupted concentration is demoralizing and grinds progress to a halt. There's a reason more code is authored between 9pm and 5am than between 9am and 5pm, but that wears engineers out badly.

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unusual in the US military for a lieutenant or captain in their early 20s to manage many senior non-commissioned officers in their late 40s.

No mil. experience myself, but I'd say that while the officers may technically 'manage' the NCO's, that with few exceptions it is the NCO's that actually get things done.

Yeah the officers all move on relatively quickly; the NCOs may be on the same ship or class of ship their entire career.

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Writing code as a team is almost like writing a novel with a few dozen other people, all of which have differing ideas on how the book should be written, or even what it should be about. I use this exact description when discussing balancing creative side of the value creation project processes, design and development over the value extraction side of products. Small empowered teams with an almost startup mindset i…

I don't have a lot to add except to say I loved this reply. I think a lot of people might miss it since it's down in the replies, maybe you could expand on it, and make it a blog post at some point?

Thanks, your post also resonated when you mentioned exactly the way I see it. I will be writing up more on this as it is a theme of mine and have quite a bit here at HN, and other areas where value creators are.

Good news is there are lots of us like it, the problem is since the value creators rarely control the funding and sometimes lose the power to implement these the right way before internal faction wars start. However at all good product and all good companies, you'll see the respect of value creation and the open mode. One day maybe business/finance will see it with the same value.

A couple of points as well, there is an internal and external view of a product. The external view is really all that matters, the market perception. The internal perceptions and processes if they are made too tight or the main focus, the external product suffers. This is one reason I think remote companies that are smaller, or having small teams, do better. They focus on their external view over the internal. Most remote work is virtual just like most communication today and especially the communication with the people that use products. The external view needs to be the main focus as well as simplicity, but also the "friend" aspect of a product. Using a product should be a simple joy, a friendly part of your day. External focused setups work the best to achieve that.

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree, if you need daily feedback you're a bad manager (unless you're in some exotic situation like a rocket launch or something). This issue largely disappears if your engineers are given the proper context, background and system overview. I'm not advocating everybody should take their project and run with it for weeks on end, but daily updates are ridiculous.

I'd actually flip that, and say if you can't give daily feedback you're a "bad" developer (I'd probably use "inexperienced" or "new" rather than "bad", because it's a hard mindset shift and it takes time). In fact, not only should you be able to give daily updates, you should be able to ship functionality on the daily. From first line of code into production and in front of customers should only ever take about 2 to…

For larger pieces of work, some times it takes me more than a day to just figure out what's where and where I can even get started. I guess I can still give updates daily, but it'll just be "still investigating".

Hell, I've fixed 1 liner bugs that have taken me a week to figure out.

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#205
post #34

Insightful article but surprised at the recommendations. Teamwork is important, yes... but smaller task sizes should have been mentioned too. > Finally, after several weeks, the engineer shares an update, and one (or many) of the following bad things transpire: Several weeks? If you are giving developers open-ended tasks that take weeks or more to complete, imo it's asking for things to go off the rails. The most eff…

I'm currently realizing that laying out a moderately complex PCB can take more than a week, but there's not much to be gained from breaking it up into smaller pieces. You kind of just have to do it.

Some problems are impossible to subdivide in a practical way. Having a team that can respond dynamically is really the only general solution I've ever seen.

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#206
While this may be true there is real long term benefit gained by me trying hard for just a little longer: It takes time to truly understand the context and form an own point of view. I take time to find quality reference documents. I take time to do a few experiments. I take time to write down and order my thoughts. Asking someone if required when I have done my homework then yields faster and more effective responses. I get higher level responses that complement and extend my groundwork. Even if I believe I know the answer I find asking can help if only to establish and deepen relationships. Ultimately it moves me in a position where others come to me.

Of course doing a submarine dive for weeks is never good except to serve as a straw-man for a blog post .

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#207

> "the biggest mistake I see engineers make is doing too much work on their own before looping in others" > "For more senior engineers, it can happen because they like to work on their own and may be overconfident in finding solutions. It can also happen if the team culture is toxic and engineers fear getting criticism early in the design process." Not saying the above statement is incorrect but here is an alternativ…

A good point, but the reason I have (and fight) this problem is much simpler:

I like writing code. I dislike talking to people.

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually flip that, and say if you can't give daily feedback you're a "bad" developer (I'd probably use "inexperienced" or "new" rather than "bad", because it's a hard mindset shift and it takes time). In fact, not only should you be able to give daily updates, you should be able to ship functionality on the daily. From first line of code into production and in front of customers should only ever take about 2 to…

Thanks for this comment. It pretty much confirms my hunch that I would not be happy in a "developer" role. I have done quite a lot work that requires writing code. But often it has been projects with literally months before there has been anything that anyone might call functionality.

Please don't over-index on this comment. It's pretty out of touch with how the majority of the field works.

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#209
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not wrong. I generally sell as a mercenary, and prefer it that way - I've been doing this longer than some of my managers have been alive. I'm paid just as well if they want to "pair program" or jira the whole process, but yeah, you hired me to fix a problem - if you are the problem, I get paid just the same. Welcome to the real world, if your work is interesting, the clock might not turn on when I'm having f…

> If your work is bullshot, I bill tighter than my lawyer Lawyers must hate their work.

Lawyers aren't tracking & billing in 6 or 10 minute increments to punish their clients, they do it so you only pay for the time they actually spent on your account. It's beneficial that, if they get a 5 minute phone call while preparing a document for you, you don't get billed for the time they were on the phone.

Re: Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others

#210
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is better if the managers of technical people are technical themselves. Otherwise you wind up with the Dilbert "pointy-haired-boss" syndrome. The non-technical manager is extremely easy to bullshit, so it's better for the company in almost all ways.

An experienced manager is not easy to bullshit regardless. Sometimes a non-technical manager is better for many reasons. Having business domain experience can be just as valuable

I have encountered non-technical managers who were good, but in every case they would have been better still had they had some technical background.

I have encountered technical managers who were not good, for various reasons.

I think having a technical background is always a benefit, HOWEVER, it is neither necessary nor sufficient for being a good manager.

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