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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#81

Post by jacobr1 »

paxys wrote: post #17

I agree with the overall arguments and conclusion, but I wonder if we need a better way of measuring poverty than some overly-adjusted "dollar per day in income" value. Like, how many calories per day in food is your family getting? Do you have consistent shelter? Do you have access to basic medical care? Are you safe from physical threats? Can you pay an unexpected bill? Do you have a social structure in place aroun…

They back into those factors by adjusting for both time and place, at the relevant thresholds. The "Human Development Index" correlates pretty strongly with income, such that you can say: at this (adjusted) income thresholds, people can afford X,Y,Z and the next threshold, they can also afford a,b,c. A more complex measure is the Multidimensional Poverty Index, which tracks Health+Eduction+StandardOfLiving, but even then the standard of living pretty closely aligns with income measures.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#83

Post by bryanlarsen »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #68
bryanlarsen wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Star Trek TNG didn't have a true post-scarcity economy. At least 5 things were key parameters in their economy and were scarce: - dilithium crystals, which were used to power ships, and thus also powered the replicators - Enterprise class ships were definitely scarce/precious - labour - land, especially on Earth - hand-made goods STTNG didn't have a money economy. That doesn't mean they were post-scarcity. The c…

It's just a little funny to say an essentially communist society has a scarcity of labor... It's like yes, that's kinda the point! They often note on the show itself that it is in fact replicator tech itself that sealed the deal for their era of post-scarcity, so yeah, that would imply some kind of scarcity in handmade goods. I think when people generally talk about "post-scarcity" it isn't that literally everything…

By that definition we already live in a post-scarcity economy. Food & housing are extremely plentiful in the US. We consume over 3600 calories per person, and waste a similar amount. Livestock eat over 10,000 calories per person. We have over 800 square feet of living space per capita.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#84

Post by marcusverus »

otikik wrote: post #29
throwthere wrote: post #3

I'll ask this kind of leading question that I have my own thoughts about but I want to hear others'-- is it capitalism that is eradicating poverty?

I will answer your question with another leading question: What do you think created poverty in the first place?

I think your question assumes that poverty is somehow unnatural, as though the human animal is born with plenty and must be driven to poverty by some external force. But the masses have lived in poverty since the beginning of time,[0] because poverty is the state of nature. Anyone who says different is trying to sell you something.

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty#historical-povert...

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#85

Post by jacobr1 »

sam0x17 wrote: post #19
throwthere wrote: post #3

I'll ask this kind of leading question that I have my own thoughts about but I want to hear others'-- is it capitalism that is eradicating poverty?

Definitely not. It's the regulation of capitalism that is driving this. This is why the countries where capitalism is most heavily regulated (nordic countries, some european countries) are cited throughout the article. Capitalism on its own with no regulation just devolves into corporate dystopia and corruption because the short term path of least resistance is always taken. When we experience progress it's because o…

> why the countries where capitalism is most heavily regulated

This really isn't the case. There is a very heavily regulation of industry in many developing countries and it impedes their growth. Often it even provides the basis for corruption. You could argue the that the nordic countries have smarter, or better regulation, but in many ways they operate freer markets than much of the world.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#86

Post by bryanlarsen »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #68
bryanlarsen wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Star Trek TNG didn't have a true post-scarcity economy. At least 5 things were key parameters in their economy and were scarce: - dilithium crystals, which were used to power ships, and thus also powered the replicators - Enterprise class ships were definitely scarce/precious - labour - land, especially on Earth - hand-made goods STTNG didn't have a money economy. That doesn't mean they were post-scarcity. The c…

It's just a little funny to say an essentially communist society has a scarcity of labor... It's like yes, that's kinda the point! They often note on the show itself that it is in fact replicator tech itself that sealed the deal for their era of post-scarcity, so yeah, that would imply some kind of scarcity in handmade goods. I think when people generally talk about "post-scarcity" it isn't that literally everything…

"sealed the deal" meaning that the replicator wasn't essential for their economy. Today we have industrial farming, robot factories and ships that can carry 100,000 tonnes, allowing us to produce an incredible amount of stuff with very little human labour. The difference between that and a replicator based economy is small. If the Star Trek reputation economy is feasible in the 24th century, it's feasible today.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#87

Post by iso1210 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #30
admax88qqq wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They claim to have adjusted the values for the price differences between countries. Although I'm not sure if rent was included in that adjustment.

If they used the OECD's PPP, which they probably did, it includes rent.

It's not a great measure, costs in Delhi are far higher than in rural areas, same with every city there is.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#88

Post by slibhb »

coldtea wrote: post #48

One problem, other comments hint on the same thing, is that poverty is not an absolute, it's relative. We would consider ourselves poor if we lived as a family of five in a tiny early 20th New York immigrant's appartment, even though we'd be much better off than a feudal peasant living in a straw hut with no electricity and a distant water well (the "working class" of its day), which in turn would be must better off…

"Poverty" (the word) is relative and has a cultural meaning. But it's not clear that we should care about those components of the word/concept.

If the poorest person in the world has a car, a home, food, and water, are they poor just because other people have much more? Even if they are, does it really matter? We find poverty viscerally disturbing because it comes with privation. If we get to a point where that is no longer the case, poverty may still exist but perhaps it shouldn't bother us as much.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#89

Post by InitialLastName »

ryan93 wrote: post #28
sam0x17 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not. It's the regulation of capitalism that is driving this. This is why the countries where capitalism is most heavily regulated (nordic countries, some european countries) are cited throughout the article. Capitalism on its own with no regulation just devolves into corporate dystopia and corruption because the short term path of least resistance is always taken. When we experience progress it's because o…

Governments should have instituted a lot more regulations a thousand years ago to eliminate poverty.

You joke, but there's no denying that the last millennium's trend of increasing government centralization, stability, control over the use of violence, and enforcement of property rights (in whatever systematic form they take) has been a factor in this reduction in poverty levels.

Nothing is quite as good at causing desperate poverty cycles as most of your local infrastructure getting regularly forcibly undeveloped in a civil war, or the chaos of local resources getting stolen by whatever brigands show up.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#90

Post by yesbabyyes »

chrisco255 wrote: post #78
coldtea wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings. Only in some very limited aspects. "Oh, they can eat wild strawberries in winter" or "have access to modern technology whereas a medieval king didn't" and such. The don't have the power of medieval kings, the don't have the wealth of medieval kings, they don't have the estates of medieval kings, the servants and free time of medieval kings, th…

They have access to all the world's information. They can travel across continents in a number of hours for less than two weeks wages. They can push a button on their phone to have gourmet food delivered to their house in under an hour. They can press another button on their phone to fetch a personal driver that will deliver them to any destination. They can choose to drive themselves, of course, and can travel hundr…

At first, I was confused reading your assertions of what poor people of the US can do, things that obviously demand money - cash or credit - that a person in poverty don't have.

With your final sentence I realized you're not talking about poverty at all, but the wealthy, which in a sense clarified things, but also made me confused: what does your comment have to do with this discussion?

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