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Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#251

Post by rory »

wbsss4412 wrote: post #216
rory wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in three different US cities and in each, walking to get groceries was normal and not challenging. I made my reply assuming the parent comment meant literally what they said. If you are reading another meaning into it, that's fine and I don't disagree. But they also don't contradict my comment, so why frame it like an argument?

They didn’t technically contradict your comment but I also didn’t feel like you were giving it a charitable reading either. I find it odd that you’re asking why I’m framing it as an argument as though an argument wasn’t already framed.

Okay, fair-- I guess I just think it's important to be clear that although most Americans choose to live in sprawling places, if you're newly arriving at the US, it's not strictly necessary. Many, many immigrants choose walkable places, since getting a drivers license, car, etc. are expensive and inconvenient startup costs.

I don't at all disagree that most of the US is not walkable. Both these things can be true at the same time, but I felt the literal statement of the parent comment was incorrect, so I corrected it.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#252

Post by frankus »

sbarre wrote: post #120
teakettle42 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vienna is one of the nicest and wealthiest cities in Europe. LA is a car-centric sprawling cesspool. Even for the US, it’s uniquely terrible. If you’d moved to some of the less desirable locations in Europe, you’d probably find them to be a shithole, too. Your lack of perspective (“how much of a shithole the USA really is”) is something I’d only expect from someone half your age on their first backpacking tour of Eur…

Geez someone hit a nerve, eh? I'm a Canadian and I've travelled most of Europe, and most of the US (among other parts of the world). The simple fact that the US doesn't have universal healthcare, and refuses to do anything real about it, or other endemic self-inflicted issues like gun violence - problems the rest of the modern world solved long ago! - kinda puts you at the bottom of the list of modern/developed count…

I'm USian by birth, my parents were both born and raised in Germany, and my partner is Canadian. I've spent most of my life in NW (lower-48) USA and far-western Canada.

As a median middle-class person, Canada is pretty clearly the winner. Significantly less economic precarity, lots of mostly (cough Canada Post) well-run public services, and a somewhat self-fulfilling prophecy that government can make people's lives better.

As a median HN reader, it's a little bit more of a mixed bag:

The pay for software development work in the US is probably about double in terms of PPP versus Canada.

The fact that the US is a much bigger market means that a lot of apps/consumer goods/services are available in the US months or years before they launch in Canada. For online orders, delivery is faster, prices are cheaper, and the selection is better in the US.

Lastly, and this is kind of specific to the Greater Vancouver/Victoria area, but you pretty much have to be part of the 1% to afford a nice house in any moderately interesting city. I think a lot of this has to do with having the mildest weather in Canada and the geographic constraints of the mountains and waterways (along with being fucked up in pretty much all the same ways as the US real-estate market). That said, in Canada the 1% isn't comically out of reach for a moderately prosperous software nerd.

My biggest gripe with the US is the overall sense of incuriosity. Say what you will about American Exceptionalism, if you answer every question of "why don't we like ?" with "because we're different", rather than asking if we could try to emulate the way that does , it leads to a lot of unnecessary stagnation. If the US can at some point get over itself, it probably has a lot of opportunity for catch-up growth.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#253

Post by pizza234 »

nivenkos wrote: post #8

I was planning to move the other way before Covid - from Sweden to California. It's much less likely now as I have a stable position and my partner lost her job in the US. Mainly the US has many benefits: - Much, much higher salaries - like 2-3x higher than Western Europe _before_ income tax! - Much larger houses for the price. i.e. you can have a big house with room for hobbies or children rather than just a small f…

> Much, much higher salaries - like 2-3x higher than Western Europe _before_ income tax!

Where does this number come from? Assuming SWE, a senior SWE in Europe will generally take around 80/120k € (non-FAANG). 2-3x means a range of 180/400k $, which is not common even in the USA.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#254

Post by shankr »

indigochill wrote: post #180

I'm an American who has now lived in Iceland just over seven years. Sacrifices: Iceland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe (last I checked, about on par with Monaco) and software engineer salaries in my experience generally -don't- reflect that. Iceland is also (surprise!) an island, so getting anything shipped here is both slow and expensive. Ideally, learn to live without stuff you could normally get…

What made you decide to move to Iceland? It's not a very common choice for most of the immigrants.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#255

Post by bwb »

My family and I left at the end of 2019. I left for a number of reasons, but the biggest is I don't want my son to not have a life, and instead just have work and high stress. And, even if he won the work lottery and ends up at a tech company I don't want to live in a place where I look at the kids on my block and know their life is just a future of never ending work/stress with no vacation or community that helps them when they get sick.

- Where do you live?

Portugal (although we spent the first year in Spain).

- What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.)

I have one good friend in the town I used to live in the USA, I miss hanging out with him. (I work remote so not much else)

- What have you gained? Everything.

My family has a high quality of life in every way. One of our biggest complaints is that in the USA it is super hard to make friends as everyone is super stressed, doesn't go to parks, and work long hours. Within months of moving to both Spain and then Portugal we have made great friends (even in small town Portugal). It is mind blowing how much happier this has made my wife.

The health care is amazing, I cry a little every time I use it. I have a chronic condition that I need to keep an eye on... and to be able to have a doctor read my chart before I come in and who answers all my questions is just mind blowing. In the USA I tried to pay for two sessions just so they would talk to me... and I couldn't even get that. They just rush me out without explaining anything.

I biked in the states a little, but had too many close calls in a college town and avoided roads. Here I use the bike lanes all the time, and do 1,00+ km long bike tours.

The work life balance is better and people are less stressed overall. No place is perfect, but overall labor has paid time off and gets to have a life even if they are working minimum wage.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#256

Post by syki »

MathCodeLove wrote: post #239
syki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We recently had a President talk about “shit hole” countries. Roughly one half of the U.S. cheered or at a minimum were passive about such a comment. I use the term “shit hole” country to refer to the U.S. partially as a joke to see Trump supporters get huffy when saying this. For a nation to be as wealthy as we are and to be in the state we are in I think it’s fair to say the U.S. is a shit hole country. Our patriot…

Okay, good for you, that doesn't at all change my statement. A sitting president talking about "shit hole" countries doesn't equate to constant, enduring criticism from the rest of the world. Glad you can get one over on "other side" though. It's honestly people like you who drive the division that perpetuates the bipartisanship and make it even more difficult to pass legislature that could benefit the country. Befor…

Talk about generalizing things! You know very little about me and my little joke with using “shit hole” country is hardly a problem the country faces or is in any way perpetuating partisan divides. It’s ok to call out hypocrisy when one sees it. This is especially so when it involves our leaders.

Before you criticize everyone and everything else, take a look at your own behavior and see if there's anything you can do to mitigate harm at your scale.

I haven’t criticized everyone or everything else. I criticized the U.S. for being as wealthy as it is and being in the state it is in. It’s not a good look for you to complain about overgeneralizing and then write the above overgeneralization.

My presidential voting record:

George Bush 1992

Bob Dole 1996

Green Party 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012

Donald Trump 2016

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#257

Post by TameAntelope »

tomxor wrote: post #246
TameAntelope wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's going on where I live (Northwest Arkansas). My air is clean, my commutes are traffic free, the people here generally suck, and I have access to world class... everything, if I want it (well, maybe not transportation, but my car is nice, German even!, and I can get…

> Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too. As an outsider, this looks like the biggest problem in the US. The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". In the US, it looks like you can also have a pr…

It's not horrible at all, you're totally right; American society is much more stratified on wealth than the EU is.

You have to understand though, when I travel to the EU, my personal quality of life drops, because of that fact. I understand why, and I don't think any less of the EU because of it (I want to live there someday), but if you're lucky enough to be marginally wealthy in the US, it's a whole different experience, and a lot of HN users will fall into that "fairly wealthy minority".

You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. But we don't have to lift a finger to get to experience all the best parts of the US, without many/any of the downsides.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#258

Post by rozenmd »

rory wrote: post #233
rozenmd wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved from Australia to France back in September 2021. Bureaucracy is a sport here, but not much more than back home. Would recommend/10, AMA.

Where are you in France? What was the biggest surprise? I have an EU passport and wouldn't mind spending a year or so in France to make the most of it.

Lyon.

I think the biggest shock was just how different classroom French and real-life French is. I studied up to B2.4 level French back in Sydney, and folks just speak so much faster here.

Also, the food is significantly higher quality than back home (even the supermarket processed crap)

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#259

Post by pavlov »

the_lonely_road wrote: post #157
boffinAudio wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ruhrgebiet is a shithole. But then again, so is Florida. As is North Dakota and most of Utah. Arizona is pretty nice, but I probably think that only because of my Australian skin. The USA is a huge shithole, and if you don't understand why anyone would think that, I have a bridge to sell you .. under which live 12 families, kids and all, who couldn't pay their medical bills after Mom/Grandpa died of cancer. It is…

Florida is a shithole? You spend too much time on the internet. Florida man is a literal meme that came about because of laws that all state collected data should be publicly available causing the media to get most of its fun crime stories from the very large population there. You realize that a large portion of the richest Americans chose to move there for their retirement? Very large swaths of southern Florida cont…

In Florida, six-year-old children live in tents:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/florida-affordable-h...

I get it that Floridians don't want a nanny state, but this kind of thing is why the below-median lifestyle in the state looks like a shithole from a European POV.

The fact that the 1% is so well-off makes the picture look even worse.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#260

Post by vmception »

yosito wrote: post #44

Me! I grew up in Ohio and live in Hungary. The biggest sacrifice has been a native English speaking community around me. Virtually everyone I know in Hungary speaks fluent English, and I learned Hungarian, but there's still a big gap when it comes to the ability to feel intimately understood and connected with my peers. But I've gained a language, an amazing and very livable captial city (great public transport, amaz…

One thing I love about being in other countries is the combination of appreciating political stances I would never adopt at home, such as Hungary’s land immigration policies, or having complete apathy to the politics as the history and incentive to bother disappears.
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