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Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

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231–240 of 474 posts

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#231

How come nobody mentions France in the comments? :) I am French but have been working 12 years for a very large US company , spent a lot of time in the US, go friends there - an witnessed/helped several Americans moving to France. Salary and healthcare were already covered. The fact that over a 3 days drive across Europe you visit 4 or 5 countries with vastly different cultures is a big plus. And by vastly I mean rea…

What do you mean by "Children will be drinking tap water starting at kindergarten and and stay like this their whole life."? Is there some sort of subtext here? In general I think it's great if you can safely drink tap water, saves the hassle and waste of getting bottled water all the time.

I think it might be a euphemism, but I'm not positive.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think getting upset comes from the fact that in addition to some very valid criticism, there is a tremendous amount of invalid criticism thrown towards the US. If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage then they would likely grow sensitive to criticism as well, even when it is occasionally valid. Another reason could be the mindless, abject hatred you seem to have of…

> If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage This would be a fair argument if you, as an American, weren't ignoring the fact that the USA is the worlds #1 cause of terror, war and torment - in countless other sovereign nations, whose infrastructure was torn apart so that Americans could feel good about themselves and their country. Austrians, and Germans aren't dropping…

A lot of the world is also thrilled with the defense support provided to them by the US. We don't remain in countries like Germany, Italy, Greece, Spain, etc by force. We do so because they couldn't defend themselves without us and they know it - so they request our presence. A lot of these allied nations are participating in those very wars you complain about, but naturally their involvement is usually much smaller since they lack the infrastructure to compete with the US.

When you say "a lot of the world" you really talking about a very specific subset of the world, while there is also much of the world grateful for our presence as we are the only real deterrent from NK, Russia, or China taking their country by force. Feel free to deny or say that I'm "othering" or am perpetuating a boogey-man, but there is very real data and intelligence to support these claims, I'm not just pulling it out of my ass.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#233

How come nobody mentions France in the comments? :) I am French but have been working 12 years for a very large US company , spent a lot of time in the US, go friends there - an witnessed/helped several Americans moving to France. Salary and healthcare were already covered. The fact that over a 3 days drive across Europe you visit 4 or 5 countries with vastly different cultures is a big plus. And by vastly I mean rea…

I moved from Australia to France back in September 2021. Bureaucracy is a sport here, but not much more than back home. Would recommend/10, AMA.

Where are you in France? What was the biggest surprise? I have an EU passport and wouldn't mind spending a year or so in France to make the most of it.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#234
I recently moved from the US to Berlin. I plan to return to the US.

Pros of Berlin:

- Good transport

- Bikeable

- Safe

- Cheaper than the big coastal cities in the US, with lower rent.

- Good clubbing (not my thing)

Cons of Berlin:

- Healthcare is inconvenient. Doctor's offices won't pick up the phone, and won't leave you on hold. You just have to go in person. Providers all work in small doctor-owned practices, and you get a referral runaround with huge wait times.

- The food in Germany is terrible. The quality of produce and other ingredients is very bad, and the restaurants are nothing special. One notable bright spot is the availability of vegetarian and vegan food. Also falafel and doner.

- The salaries are shockingly low. Really ask yourself if all the comforts of Europe are worth cutting your salary in 2 or 3, and that's before...

- Taxes. The top tax rate here is in the low-40s, comparable to the US, but unlike the US, the top tax bracket starts below $65k.

- Europe has an impending demographic crisis, and the social safety net they fund by plundering your paycheck probably won't be there for you when you retire.

- Stores in general suck. They have fewer, and worse products.

- Everyone still smokes here.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's going on where I live (Northwest Arkansas). My air is clean, my commutes are traffic free, the people here generally suck, and I have access to world class... everything, if I want it (well, maybe not transportation, but my car is nice, German even!, and I can get…

Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia. But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, the ignorance of the cost to the rest of the world of American moral authority - this is prevalent no matter where you go in the USA. And then, there's the social fabric. Go outside and find your nearest bum, living on the street. Get to know them and how they g…

In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner.

My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity.

It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost?

Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US?

I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, if I lived in la, I'd hate America too.

LA was home base but I worked and visited most of the USA's states, and I just find American classism to be .. distasteful. And also, endemic no matter where you go.

Have you not encountered classism in Germany? I am a fluent German speaker who lived in Erfurt, Berlin, Frankfurt and Munich and encountered similar amounts of racism and classism that I have seen in the USA, France and England. The attitudes of some people from the former West to those from the East are shocking. While in Erfurt, I saw the most horrific treatment of immigrants and refugees. I want to make sure that people understand that Germany is not some sort of magical place devoid of serious issues. The country is still suffering from the post-war division and unification, is battling a resurgent fascist political movement and the people are deeply divided over recent waves of refugees in addition to long-standing resentment against much earlier waves of immigration.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#237
post #57
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in an American colony; the Canal Zone. We had our own schools and were taught U.S. curriculum and about the U.S. I was a rabid nationalist. I had never lived in the U.S. until I went to college but had visited it. Ever since coming to the U.S. I slowly became more and more liberal and less and less nationalistic. The myths I was taught about the U.S. did not withstand my experience of the country. Everythin…

> It’s very hard to live where you can walk to a grocery store. Very hard seems like an exaggeration. More expensive, maybe, but millions of low-income people also do it. I didn't have a car for most of my twenties, and the majority of my social group didn't either. Living in a more spread out area of the US is a choice-- one that comes with benefits, but still a choice.

I do love living in New Orleans, either this or Brooklyn are the only real cities for me here. I need to be able to walk to a grocery store. I'm privileged to have lived here for 6 years, and the only reason I recently got an old truck, was to evacuate in case of a hurricane, and we didn't even evacuate during ida. The sidewalks are torn to shit, the streets are full of holes. I'm quite certain that the streets are never fixed because they wouldn't have enough cops to keep people from driving drunk. The city hall sign has been broken for 4 years, the lights don't work in some of the letters and it just reads "ity all" at night. It's illegal to be fully nude in SF these days, but NOLA still has a fully naked bike ride. This place can feel like burning man or joshua tree, but with toilets and electricity. Except for during hurricanes, then its exactly like burning man. I went to the bar next door during ida to find a couple fucking at the bar and open bottles of lube softly lit up with a dark orange glow from the 3 candles that dimly lit my favorite bartenders face as he asked about whether my house got badly damaged or not. The architecture is very old and very unique, actually its very european and feels quite distinct from the architecture in boston/nyc. I don't know a single person in tech here, everyone has some sort of creative endeavor and makes money through a hodge podge of sources. I live next to a 24 hour gay bar, and across the street from a supermarket, next to a vet, and caddy corner from a pharmacy. I never have a reason to leave my block, and this neighborhood boasts the most dense concentration of trans/queer people I've ever encountered.

The city boasts a strong spiritual history, which I sense, causes people to come here to either flourish, or get spit out. There's not much in the way of hiking/mountains around here, and the most beautiful natural environments are in the swamp amongst the gators and pelicans dancing through the soft and grassy patches of muddy land dotting the waters edge. There are no other cities I really like visiting within an hour. It's a bright blue dot in a fire-red state. Car-jackings are up 550% over last year, and the particular circumstances by which someone killed someone with a machete at the gas-station down the street from my house, I'm sorry to say, were unsurprising.

Having said that, I can't live the rest of my life not having *lived* outside of the US. I'll be moving to Berlin at some point, because that's the closest city that felt like it feels here. The food is cheaper, you can find Indian food, and there are more languages spoken. The government there doesn't feel like some morally corrupted festering cesspool of civil indifference and political myopia. Despite everything I love about this place, and that I'm quite certain I'll retire here, I'm eager to GTFO while I still feel young, to experience what its like to feel young in a place more free than the farce I've been raised to believe. I have friends in Berlin, and though German is pretty hard to speak well, I'm up for the challenge.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#238
post #72

I moved to Europe from the Midwest near the beginning of my career (20 years ago). It's very difficult to compare things like housing, social life and salary without knowing where you're coming from and where you're considering going. Countries in Europe have GDPs per capita ranging from under $5,000/year to over $100,000/year. Really one of the few things you can say context-free is: you'll have more vacation in vir…

> Really one of the few things you can say context-free is: you'll have more vacation in virtually any European country. In tech, at least, this probably is no longer true. In my experience most of the bigger companies have been moving to unlimited vacation. I'm pretty sure that someone in upper management did the math and concluded that employees granted unlimited vacation actually end up taking fewer days than if t…

>this probably is no longer true

>most of the bigger companies have been moving to unlimited vacation

>concluded that employees granted unlimited vacation actually end up taking fewer days than if they are metered

It sounds to me like you just argued against yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#239
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think getting upset comes from the fact that in addition to some very valid criticism, there is a tremendous amount of invalid criticism thrown towards the US. If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage then they would likely grow sensitive to criticism as well, even when it is occasionally valid. Another reason could be the mindless, abject hatred you seem to have of…

We recently had a President talk about “shit hole” countries. Roughly one half of the U.S. cheered or at a minimum were passive about such a comment. I use the term “shit hole” country to refer to the U.S. partially as a joke to see Trump supporters get huffy when saying this. For a nation to be as wealthy as we are and to be in the state we are in I think it’s fair to say the U.S. is a shit hole country. Our patriot…

Okay, good for you, that doesn't at all change my statement. A sitting president talking about "shit hole" countries doesn't equate to constant, enduring criticism from the rest of the world. Glad you can get one over on "other side" though. It's honestly people like you who drive the division that perpetuates the bipartisanship and make it even more difficult to pass legislature that could benefit the country. Before you criticize everyone and everything else, take a look at your own behavior and see if there's anything you can do to mitigate harm at your scale.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#240
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pay and opportunities are infinitely better ...if you're lucky enough to be among the privileged.

True. But if we're talking software engineering, everyone posting here is probably "privileged" in that regard. Let me just take this moment to say, holy shit what a fascinating time we all live in and what a happy accident it was that I stumbled into software engineering in this particular era. I'm not aware of a recent time in history when you could get what amounts to a doctor's salary without the lengthy schoolin…

The capital owning class are gunning to eliminate these salaries. "You will own nothing and be happy" is not something they just reserve for the lower classes. The future is hard to predict but don't rule out these outrageous salaries being gone in a decade or two and the market being much more middle/lower middle class type jobs.
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