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iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

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Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#121

Post by ericHosick »

bad_user wrote: post #35
ericHosick wrote: post #9

"The more I use graphical interfaces (or anything that does not operate on text streams - commandline curses programs included), the more I am struck by how profound the loss of composability is". Exactly this! You've hit on the nail on the head here. Computing devices are inherently non-composable. Mostly because we, as software developers, have failed to create frameworks that are fully composable. The real problem…

Mostly because we, as software developers, have failed to create frameworks that are fully composable. This is MBA-talk. Big companies would like nothing more than for programming to become something unskilled workers can do. I would like that too, but from a different perspective. Programming is not really like assembling Lego blocks. And if you pick any other industry, taking a close look at how new developments ar…

Yes. My bad. I should have said "The real problem is we still need to code." I do agree with you that we will always need to design interfaces, engineer solutions, gather requirements, understand the systems being developed, etc. But we should not and will not need to code the solution.

What does "fully composable" mean?

A framework/architecture that is fully composable would be one that allows you to implement any solvable system without writing code.

As for the "MBA-talk" stuff... It is possible to create frameworks that are fully composable. If you would like, I can chat with you about such things outside of HN.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#122

Post by Apocryphon »

pointyhat wrote: post #79
Gilpo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is it if it's not a computer? An interesting question. Is the iPad a computer? Your average power-user (let's say programmers, Apple fanbois, Android users, and me) would say, "Umm hello? Obviously!" But your legions of average regular iPad users (grandmas, and your average college students) might not agree. But if you asked them what an iPad was, if it was a computer, they couldn't quite be able to tell you.…

That is precisely it. Which brings me to the point here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3003812 "We're slowly being led into paying incrementally for utility computing on a device we actually paid up front for". If it's no longer a computer, it's an open market to exploit. We are consumers, not users any more.

I really don't understand your point. How is any of this to the detriment of the average user who uses the iPad to browse the net/read ebooks/watch movies/listen to music/as a digital photo frame? The average user doesn't need to use the iPad as a computer. If the problem is pricing, then that indeed is an issue with tablets, but then Apple's products have always been high priced.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#123

Post by snprbob86 »

josteink wrote: post #78
snprbob86 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side note: Please do not use "> " for your reply. That is generally reserved for quoting what you are replying to. > No but I honestly thinks there are people sitting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your money, even if it entails taking away your freedom. Sure, there is some dude somewhere who only cares about driving up the quarterly numbers. But generally Apple has a pretty long record of shipping…

Just don't accuse a team of hard working, talented people of being out to take your freedom. Are you saying the people working on Android, Metro and platforms not owned by Apple are not talented or hard working? If not, why is the manner in which Apple people are working really relevant? You are simply evading the point. It seems like to you, your ownership of Apple devices is a personal obligation to defend Apple fr…

> Are you saying the people working on Android, Metro and platforms not owned by Apple are not talented or hard working?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I was simply taking Apple as an example. The original article was about iOS and I think it's fair to say that from the original commenter's perspective, Apple is out to get your freedom.

I, in fact, was a contributor to Windows Phone 7. I worked damn hard to get the XNA deployment and debugging to work super smoothly. I'm supper proud of my small contribution to that product.

However, the Win Phone platform offers just a tiny bit more freedom of hardware choice. And that comes with a cost. I can tell you that having a dozen potential devices floating around the office, with varying graphics cards and other specs, was very time consuming for development. The first Win Phone 7 would have been much more timely if there was a single hardware platform locked down much earlier in the development schedule.

As for Android, it's further down the spectrum. You hear about fragmentation and whatnot. There are very real costs associated with the flexibility that platform offers. Freedom isn't free. Sometimes it is worth it. For some people, like myself, I choose a different type of freedom for my phone.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#124

Post by snprbob86 »

vacri wrote: post #59
snprbob86 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side note: Please do not use "> " for your reply. That is generally reserved for quoting what you are replying to. > No but I honestly thinks there are people sitting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your money, even if it entails taking away your freedom. Sure, there is some dude somewhere who only cares about driving up the quarterly numbers. But generally Apple has a pretty long record of shipping…

When the machine I built had a power supply failure, I had to go fucking replace it. I was free to use whatever power supply I wanted, but I wasn't free to use my damn computer for the four days I waited for my new component. vs When my iMac had a buzzing noise, they replaced it in the store in under an hour. So "sitting on my arse doing nothing, I had to wait four days for a replacement" versus "I physically took my…

Both repairs were free (err...gratis) warrantee replacements by the manufacturer. Of course I could have paid for a new component or repair at a local computer shop.

> can still be doing a bad thing, even though they're full of good intentions.

Totally agree. I just don't think they are doing a bad thing either. No one is forcing you to buy a locked down device. No one is forcing you to make a particular freedom tradeoff. Buy whichever product you like for whichever reasons you like. But just be cognizant of the tradeoffs and their costs without making value judgements about those who make different tradeoffs, both as consumers and as producers.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#125

Post by snprbob86 »

josteink wrote: post #75
snprbob86 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All these companies want to do is turn your computing experience into a locked down, controlled, monitored experience." Oh, bullshit. Do you really think there is someone siting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your freedom? No. There fucking isn't. I'm a huge believer in small, composable components. And I know that developing against closed platforms sucks . Being able to dig down into the source…

The people at Apple just want to make damn good products. They are proud as hell of those products. They work very hard to make them that damn good. It's very hard to read the rest of your comment and not have you mentally pre-positioned as a fanboy. I'm not saying this to be a troll, but because comments like this really do stand out. Would you give any other company this sort of slack you are now giving Apple? If s…

> Would you give any other company this sort of slack you are now giving Apple? If so, why not?

I used to work for Microsoft. Although you'd have to dig back a couple years in my comment history, you'll find many posts where I defended Microsoft and explained some of the intricacies and complexities of building products for the customers that Microsoft really cares about.

I also used to work for Google, and somewhere in my comment history, I also defend the fact that Google isn't out to track your every move.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have chosen to defend only Apple in my original post. It weakened my argument because of the perception of being a fanboy. I think that all the same points apply to Microsoft and Xbox.

PC gamers shout about how consoles are trying to kill your freedom. You can't even use your own choice of team voice chat utility? OMG! OPPRESSIVE. But really, the locked down platform was easier and cheaper for Microsoft to develop than the wild west of PCs / Direct3D. I quit being a PC gamer, gave up some of my freedom to play mods, so that I'd have the freedom to install whatever new game came out without having to think about the specs of my PC.

Different value tradeoffs for different consumers, or even for the same consumers with different needs at different times! Different value tradeoffs for companies producing those products for those who make different value tradeoffs as consumers.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#126

Post by mas644 »

mas644 wrote: post #8

It's not anti-Unix or anti-programmer...it's all about being anti-freedom. All these companies want to do is turn your computing experience into a locked down, controlled, monitored experience. They want to turn your limitless and powerful computer into a home appliance...like a blender or electric razer. No way to customize, no way to modify, no way to organize thoughts your way. No hacking or "jailbreaking" into yo…

Wow, I had no idea I would stir up the beehive so much! Perhaps I was a bit dramatic in my presentation. The point I'm trying to make isn't that Apple, Google, etc are evil nor am I saying their products aren't good. The problem is things like DRM, net neutrality, software patents, privacy, developer and user rights, taking away control of information from users and throwing it in the cloud. THEY WANT TO CONTROL YOU SO THEY CAN CONTROL THEIR REVENUE STREAM AND ENACT PROPRIETARY LOCKIN! They would rather do that than have real competition! It's the Microsoft business model with sexier marketing. What happens when files go away -- how do I backup my data? Is my data even physically on my device? Is it located at some server at one of Apple's data centers? Are they securely storing it? Will I have access to it if they go out of business? Similiarly as a developer, how come there is no option for me to get my app onto the iPhone without being subject to Apple's App Store submission process? Sure, users may not notice, but they've created a major barrier to market. The excuse is that "oh we need to make sure it's user friendly and high quality", but we've seen often that they pull apps because they compete with something they're doing or they suddenly don't like the UI because it messes with Steve's vision of how your computer should behave.

I don't think having open technologies and easy to use technologies is mutually exclusive. Android is a great counterexample to iOS. For DIYers on Hacker News, another great example is Arduino. Also, if you haven't taken a look at a Linux distribution in years (or ever) like Ubuntu, you really should try it out. Not only is it free and open, but it provides (in my opinion) an easier and aesthically superior experience to Windows/Mac and is a way better option for 90% of users that do simple things like listen to music, watch videos, take pictures, and surf the web.

As one other person posted, they aren't trying to be evil, but they want to nickel and dime you at every step. They don't want you installing a more open OS on your device because they cannot control the experience (I gave the example of tethering in my original post). What scares them is giving you options that allow you to migrate away from their platform. A lot of people said "hey that's just business", but there are other business models than "proprietary lockin" that gives users flexibility and choice as well as generate profits for the company.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#127

Post by william42 »

dasil003 wrote: post #115

So only programmers deserve nice things? Look, I get the danger the app-storification of software, and honestly it scares me more than Microsoft ever did, just because it's so appealing from a consumer perspective. But barring the removal of direct distribution and the UNIX shell, I say more power to Apple in terms of re-inventing the consumer computing experience. What the author doesn't seem to understand is that g…

> we have to acknowledge that programmer devices are increasingly going to be distinct from the mass market devices.

Actually, this creeps me out more than anything else, because where are we going to get new programmers? The prototypical childhood story of most of us is that of discovering a programming language on our computers and learning through experimentation. Will that be possible in an iPad world?

Though this brings me to an idea I've had for a while; a website where children can learn to program from their browser, since every modern browser has a JavaScript interpreter built in.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#128

Post by william42 »

rimantas wrote: post #51

Photoshop is anti-unix and anti-programmer. Because I cannot program in it. Duh. It's official—from now on I am anti-stupid-titles on HN. Will flag any submission with a meaningless title like this. What does it mean being anti? It's either active stance against something or at least major disagreement. I cannot see how iOS is actively fighting unix (being based on it) or programmers (being created for it and offerin…

Photoshop doesn't have a scripting interface? I'm surprised.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#129

Post by wonderzombie »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #87
rimantas wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why exactly my tablet should be different from razor or blender? Or my TV or my car? For many this is just a tool, not goal. lack of will by the masses to understand their technology There are many many many more fields besides IT. If anyone: be it waitress or accountant will be required to understand IT it will not end well. They want you to be dumber. No. I don't feel any dumber because I don't know how to fix…

Do not say "this is just a tool", it never helps. Besides, computer happen to be different in kind : they can do anything you tell them to. This is as close to a genie in a bottle as you will ever get. It wouldn't feel right to deprive most people of this little genie, don't you think?

I think you overestimate people's desire (let alone aptitude) to wrestle with the genie in order to get their wishes. I assure you that a great many people are only able to use computers by memorizing a series of steps. They have no mental model for how it works.

Given the options of "limitless but practically useless" versus "limited but quite useful practically," I'll opt for the second option. I'd rather have more people using computers than not. It's not fair to deprive people the power of even a relatively limited slice of computing just because they don't want to make a hobby out of it.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#130

Post by zwaldowski »

vacri wrote: post #60
natch wrote: post #50

I love composability as much as the author, but his opinion is, to put it kindly, not well informed. iOS has a myriad of mechanisms for sharing content within and between apps, bot from the same developer and from different developers, with and without prior agreement, and for composing workflows and experiences that are greater than the sum of the parts. Some of these mechanisms are new, and the possibilities have n…

The "anti-freedom" charges, the locking out of certain features, you get the same stuff on any platform. Just try to publish an app that abuses the Android logo in any Android market. Really? "Android isn't free because you can't 'abuse' the brand's logo"? That's the best counter-example you could come up with?

You mean besides the fact that you can't call your build of Android, Android without Google's permission? The fact that Google still hasn't released the sources to a 7-month-old "open source" OS? Yeah, Android is totally "open."
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