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iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

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Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#71

Post by cageface »

potatolicious wrote: post #63
onosendai wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what the parent, or the article is saying. Don't turn this into some sort of class warfare for the sake of trolling. The ability of an OS or application to expose data in order to allow you to manipulate it as you see fit, does not preclude it being user-friendly and straighforward to use. That funcionality might very well be hidden away, but available if you're inclined to use it. The point that is being…

But it does. Or at least, it does in every way that we've yet to imagine. What the author of the article suggests would be not "anti-programmer" are necessarily "anti-user". Breaking everything down into composable components and forcing the user to compose even simple, everyday procedures before being able to use them? How terribly difficult and exclusive to techies only! Similarly, he suggests that the only way for…

I wonder how many of the people here decrying iOS as a radical loss of freedom would be willing to learn how the engine of their car works in order to drive it, or how all the machinery in a dentist's office works in order to get a checkup.

We live in an age of specialization and iOS just represents a far less leaky abstraction for the average user than the operating systems of the past.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#73

Post by cageface »

bad_user wrote: post #35
ericHosick wrote: post #9

"The more I use graphical interfaces (or anything that does not operate on text streams - commandline curses programs included), the more I am struck by how profound the loss of composability is". Exactly this! You've hit on the nail on the head here. Computing devices are inherently non-composable. Mostly because we, as software developers, have failed to create frameworks that are fully composable. The real problem…

Mostly because we, as software developers, have failed to create frameworks that are fully composable. This is MBA-talk. Big companies would like nothing more than for programming to become something unskilled workers can do. I would like that too, but from a different perspective. Programming is not really like assembling Lego blocks. And if you pick any other industry, taking a close look at how new developments ar…

I still haven't seen a persuasive attempt to make graphical interfaces truly composable. Composing streams of characters is child's play conceptually compared to any kind of meaningful visual composibility. Just look at the api for a typical button widget in your framework of choice. How on earth are you going to expose this in a user-friendly way to the non-geek?

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#74

Post by Akuma »

pointyhat wrote: post #43
snprbob86 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All these companies want to do is turn your computing experience into a locked down, controlled, monitored experience." Oh, bullshit. Do you really think there is someone siting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your freedom? No. There fucking isn't. I'm a huge believer in small, composable components. And I know that developing against closed platforms sucks . Being able to dig down into the source…

I agree with the OP: > Oh, bullshit. Do you really think there is someone siting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your freedom? Yes - more precisely they are working out new ways to charge you for it. We're slowly being led into paying incrementally for utility computing on a device we actually paid up front for. Only a fool buys something then pays to use it.

> Only a fool buys something then pays to use it.

You mean like buying any of the following:

  * A car (fuel, tires, a bunch of other stuff)  
  * _Any_ cellphone (either a monthly fee or pre paid)  
  * Clothes (I sure hope you wash them?)  
  * _Any_ electrical appliance (electric bill you know...)
(and the list goes on...)

Yeah. A fool indeed...

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#75

Post by josteink »

snprbob86 wrote: post #31
mas644 wrote: post #8

It's not anti-Unix or anti-programmer...it's all about being anti-freedom. All these companies want to do is turn your computing experience into a locked down, controlled, monitored experience. They want to turn your limitless and powerful computer into a home appliance...like a blender or electric razer. No way to customize, no way to modify, no way to organize thoughts your way. No hacking or "jailbreaking" into yo…

"All these companies want to do is turn your computing experience into a locked down, controlled, monitored experience." Oh, bullshit. Do you really think there is someone siting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your freedom? No. There fucking isn't. I'm a huge believer in small, composable components. And I know that developing against closed platforms sucks . Being able to dig down into the source…

The people at Apple just want to make damn good products. They are proud as hell of those products. They work very hard to make them that damn good.

It's very hard to read the rest of your comment and not have you mentally pre-positioned as a fanboy. I'm not saying this to be a troll, but because comments like this really do stand out. Would you give any other company this sort of slack you are now giving Apple? If so, why not?

And while that may not be such an interesting discussion in itself, I am not willing to support and hand over my money to someone acting against freedom of choice, because someone else on the internet says "Don't worry: These people are good guys. Really!"

Freedom isn't free.

Again. I would love to see anyone make this sort of defense for Oracle or Microsoft.

I'm no dumber for owning an iPhone

Maybe not dumber, but you have locked your mind to the most restrictive of the mobile OS platforms out there and the limited workflows it allows.

I would be very surprised if this didn't also limit your ways of thinking about how problems can be solved.

The iPhone is a glorious, crowning achievement of engineering that still, years later, Microsoft and Google are struggle to replicate.

Absolutely revolting fanboy talk. I tend to find the iPhone a glorified piece of needlessly heavy electronics running visually polished but annoyingly limited software, which fails at the most basic of tasks, like sending data from one app to another via something called "files".

You want to talk about freedom? I'm free from thinking about memory management. And processor utilization. And data loss.

So am I. On my Android phone. While my iPhone 3G had constant memory-problems because it wasn't built to multi-task. Oh well.

Why is it iPhone owners seems to default on Android being an immature platform, cite Android 1.6 problems, while any factual representation of the limitations found in current iOS releases is answered with "iOS next" and that is supposed to be a valid answer, free from hypocrisy?

Seriously. You guys need to get out of the Apple store more often. It may actually be starting to dumb you down.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#76

Post by MatthewPhillips »

cageface wrote: post #71
potatolicious wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it does. Or at least, it does in every way that we've yet to imagine. What the author of the article suggests would be not "anti-programmer" are necessarily "anti-user". Breaking everything down into composable components and forcing the user to compose even simple, everyday procedures before being able to use them? How terribly difficult and exclusive to techies only! Similarly, he suggests that the only way for…

I wonder how many of the people here decrying iOS as a radical loss of freedom would be willing to learn how the engine of their car works in order to drive it, or how all the machinery in a dentist's office works in order to get a checkup. We live in an age of specialization and iOS just represents a far less leaky abstraction for the average user than the operating systems of the past.

I'm not anti-iOS, I'm anti-all current mobile OSes. I think you present a false dichotomy. I shouldn't have to know how the engine in my car works, but I should have the option of tinkering with it if I wish.

And I do expect my car to be componentized. I expect it to have a transmission, an alternator, a radiator, etc. While I have no preferences for how those components are designed, I expect them to work, on the whole, as one would expect those types of components to work. That is they have an input and output. I wouldn't buy a car where all of these components were replaced with 1 proprietary, untinkerable, thing.

What I want is Canonical or Mozilla, or whoever, to be able to write an OS that can be installed on just about any phone hardware, the way it can be done on any x86 computer. Whether it's the crazy patent situation or harder engineering challenges that prevent that today, I'm not sure.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#77

Post by BoppreH »

natch wrote: post #50

I love composability as much as the author, but his opinion is, to put it kindly, not well informed. iOS has a myriad of mechanisms for sharing content within and between apps, bot from the same developer and from different developers, with and without prior agreement, and for composing workflows and experiences that are greater than the sum of the parts. Some of these mechanisms are new, and the possibilities have n…

You are missing the point. What the author wants is a composable toolbox. He knows it's possible, he can wield them proficiently, and the gains are numerous, but the system doesn't give him the means to do that.

You can't pipe iPad apps. You can't filter emails from a file using a single line of Objective-C. Development environments don't have the practicality of typing text in a shell for instant execution.

If I understood correctly, "anti-programmer" means the environment doesn't make use of his abstraction abilities, not that it is bad for developing software.

And hell yes, I would compose kitchen appliances if I could.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#78

Post by josteink »

snprbob86 wrote: post #53
norswap wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Oh, bullshit. Do you really think there is someone siting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your freedom?" > No but I honestly thinks there are people sitting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your money, even if it entails taking away your freedom. "The people at Apple just want to make damn good products. They are proud as hell of those products. They work very hard to make them tha…

Side note: Please do not use "> " for your reply. That is generally reserved for quoting what you are replying to. > No but I honestly thinks there are people sitting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your money, even if it entails taking away your freedom. Sure, there is some dude somewhere who only cares about driving up the quarterly numbers. But generally Apple has a pretty long record of shipping…

Just don't accuse a team of hard working, talented people of being out to take your freedom.

Are you saying the people working on Android, Metro and platforms not owned by Apple are not talented or hard working? If not, why is the manner in which Apple people are working really relevant?

You are simply evading the point. It seems like to you, your ownership of Apple devices is a personal obligation to defend Apple from its "enemies". It isn't. Again I am forced to asked why you are doing this. It taints the rest of your argument and makes everything you do sound awfully much like zeal, and not like a rational opinion.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#79

Post by pointyhat »

Gilpo wrote: post #69
pointyhat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is though. What is it if it's not a computer?

> What is it if it's not a computer? An interesting question. Is the iPad a computer? Your average power-user (let's say programmers, Apple fanbois, Android users, and me) would say, "Umm hello? Obviously!" But your legions of average regular iPad users (grandmas, and your average college students) might not agree. But if you asked them what an iPad was, if it was a computer, they couldn't quite be able to tell you.…

That is precisely it. Which brings me to the point here:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3003812

"We're slowly being led into paying incrementally for utility computing on a device we actually paid up front for".

If it's no longer a computer, it's an open market to exploit. We are consumers, not users any more.

Re: iOS is anti-Unix and anti-programmer

#80

Post by learc83 »

mas644 wrote: post #8

It's not anti-Unix or anti-programmer...it's all about being anti-freedom. All these companies want to do is turn your computing experience into a locked down, controlled, monitored experience. They want to turn your limitless and powerful computer into a home appliance...like a blender or electric razer. No way to customize, no way to modify, no way to organize thoughts your way. No hacking or "jailbreaking" into yo…

All technology is magic at some level. Go deep enough and no matter what the technology is, we don't understand it why it really works on some basic physical level.

Every electrical engineer, or computer scientist out there might as well be a wizard. Why pretend that one piece of technology is inferior just b/c it operates on a different level of abstraction.

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