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Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

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Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#211

Many tech companies are actively discriminating against asian/white males. Often it is tech companies run by asian/white males. Affirmative action is the default policy. The main way I've seen this implemented is by controlling who gets recruited through LinkedIn. Obviously qualified asian/white men simply get skipped over, filtered out, in many cases. They never even know they were discriminated against. The other w…

I work as a machine learning engineer on search & recommender systems, mostly focused on relevancy ranking in the recruiting space. It's unbelievable the pressure I have encountered to give "diverse" candidates a boost across the board in our scoring algorithms. Almost every client's talent acquisition team has asked what we can do to help them meet their diversity goals (which they loosely define as hiring more women and non-white / Asian people). I keep up with what some of the major players are doing (LinkedIn, Indeed, etc.), and they come straight out and say they preferentially weight diverse candidates

> For a given search or recommendation task, our algorithms seek to achieve a desired distribution of top ranked results with respect to one or more protected attributes.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.01989

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#213

I'm studying statistics just at the moment, and for anyone who is curious and has an open mind, the most likely (in a Bayesian sense) reason that the OP has posted this comment is because they do not have access to a single female Senior Software Engineer who they feel meet their requirements. (This is more likely than an alternative explanation such as that the best candidate for the position OP wishes to fill is fe…

Past discrimination doesn't justify discrimination in the present.

>Past discrimination doesn't justify discrimination in the present.

You show a kind of logical thinking, since it is in fact a kind of discrimination in the present. However, you can verify for yourself that this is correct through something like the following. It's pseudocode, to help you reason correctly:

    // assume all we know about the candidate is whether they are "A" or "B" and their years of experience.
    // generate 10,000 candidates
    candidates = 10,000 x random (a or b)

    for each candidate trueability = random (1 to 100) // their true ability which we don't know is a random number 1 to 100

    for each candidate years of experience = random (1 to 20)


    // however, let's corrupt our data. Let's artificially reduce the years of experience for all candidates who are "A".

    // let's add sexism
    for each candidate:
      if candidate gender == "A" then years of experience = 0

Under this scenario, is using the proxy "years of experience" the best way to get trueability?

    Bag of candidates = 10 random candidates from all candidates
How can you judge the best candidate if the most salient characteristic (years of experience) is artificially constrained?

This is the situation under the true historical context I quoted above:

>The IBM interviewer commented that he had never seen such a high score from any applicant and offered me either a secretarial or an entry sales position. I countered that I was interested in their advertised technical positions that required a math background, especially given my score on their math aptitude test, but he simply said that those positions were for males. End of conversation.

This means that my outrageous pseudocode with this corrupt line that caps talented candidates at 0 years of experience - actually describes real life. Continuing to use the proxy rather than get the trueability is not justified.

Under such a scenario, it is no longer possible to use the salient proxy characteristic to judge the candidate.

I want you to really get this, so I'll use a final motivating example.

- Should a company hire violent rapists?

Of course not. They are a threat to other employees.

Okay, so what if someone accused you of being a violent rapist even though you were innocent? That would suck! Imagine if you tried to appeal but were told: "Sorry. We understand you were falsely accused in the past, but a false accusation in the past does NOT justify us spending resources on determining whether the accusation is true or not. It is easiest for us to use the proxy of not hiring anyone like you."

I use this example because if I were a woman denied a job just because I wasn't a man, I would feel it is a gross injustice similar to a false accusation. So, you should use that feeling to realize that the "discrimination" you're complaining about is in fact righting a wrong.

You are saying: "Righting past wrongs does not justify spending present resources". This is a moral question. Personally, I feel I have enough resources to spend an extra few seconds each candidate to see their true ability, rather than applying a heuristic based on past discrimination. In my experience this also gives me access to better teams faster. If that comes at the cost that I have to get to know candidates it seems like a small price to pay.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#214
post #202
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true when the problem is outreach, eg companies that rely too much on existing employees' alumni and social networks to recruit. I know of some people from historically underrepresented backgrounds who'd never have been hired where they are now without active outreach on the recruiters' part, and they were definitely in the top decile

If these individuals were top decile, why weren’t they gunning it for top companies/salaries to begin with? Why do they need to be reached out to if they have the talent? It has been a STEM job seekers market for a while now.

Lack of knowledge and humility? People look at some of the top companies, lionized as they are for their exclusive hiring process, and don't see themselves as belonging there. All the more so as they don't know anybody there. Meanwhile Jo big-school dude knows, hey my buddy went in and I know based on four years as roommates that I'm smarter than he is, it can't be that hard.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't report to NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or to the state AG. They will leak to your HR, and ruin your career. NLRB, FBI/DOJ, AGs are just run by politics du jour.

Not from the US, but then you need to hold these institutions to account. Difficult with a non-informed public about these issues, but it will hit them if you take legal action against them directly. Nobody wants to have dirt on their vests and you have to make some of it stick.

Revolving door and prosecutorial discretion is one kind of legally authorized corruption. That's why when one files a complaint with FBI/DOJ/etc, it will be leaked immediately to the higher echelons of FAANG companies. Why do they leak, even if they don't want to prosecute using discretion? Because these guys (or their relatives) want to get cushy jobs at FAANG or have FAANG refer legal work to the firms they will recommend.

A small guy has no chance of succeeding this, unless one wants to ruin one's career.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#216

Many tech companies are actively discriminating against asian/white males. Often it is tech companies run by asian/white males. Affirmative action is the default policy. The main way I've seen this implemented is by controlling who gets recruited through LinkedIn. Obviously qualified asian/white men simply get skipped over, filtered out, in many cases. They never even know they were discriminated against. The other w…

> Many tech companies are actively discriminating against asian/white males Reminds me of a saying I heard once: “always try and get an asian male doctor because they are discriminated against the most in med school admissions programs. The asian men who made it past the discrimination had to be so much better than the others to make it.”

It’s a pretty common sentiment.

“You must be 2x as good as the next [white person] if you want to compete”.

I’m African American and my grandparents, born 100 years ago, would tell me this as a child.

It’s not an uplifting message to hear but just about every non-white person i know has heard a racial or sex-related variation of this statement growing up.

I’ve assume it’s always true because despite all this talk of DEI because to this day - I can count the number of POC and women I have ever worked with on 2 hands.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#217

WHY DO PEOPLE ASK FOR LEGAL ADVICE HERE? ASK A LAWYER....

"Lawyer" seems to be a synonym for All Seeing All Comprehending God. Lawyers that I have met were mostly clueless, lazy, greedy and caused harm to the client.

Whatever opinions you have, the legal system was designed by lawyers in such a complicated fashion that only lawyers can keep track of it. Like that or not, it's the way it is.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#218

If you say anything, it's possible that you would be ending your career. If you do, it is likely that you will be hunting for a new job (and your reputation as a bigot may follow you unless you move to a new industry, and even then depending on how profile your departure is). This has become a common practice in the tech industry, and unquestioned support is expected at a minimum. If you have non-standard hardware on…

It's gone farther than "if you say anything". I recently got an "improvement needed" evaluation on one of my goals to support the Diversity and Inclusion initiatives of my department. I am a hiring manager, and not only did I abide by all of the guidelines and processes, but I also hired and promoted multiple female and minority applicants at a higher rate than the department as a whole. I still insisted that they were qualified, of course.

When I questioned the evaluation, I was told that it wasn't enough to support the initiatives and get the results, but you also "NEED TO BELIEVE IN THEM FULLY". Apparently, my boss believes that I am not in 100% alignment with the philosophies behind them. He's correct in that I do not agree with flagrant discrimination based on sex, race, or any other characteristic, regardless of which direction they are in. I'd fire anyone who discriminated against women, minorities, etc., but if I even SEEM TO QUESTION or be troubled about whether the same shouldn't be done against "some people", then I "need improvement."

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#219
post #4

What's your motive here? Are you planning to leave the company if this escalates? I'm asking because if you want to "take them down" you totally can. Capture evidence and involve an employment lawyer. But what is in it for you? The lawyer will get paid handsomely. What about you? I don't think you're particularly damaged by this to ask for damages.

I'm not surprised that on HN, basic ethics is too much of an ask

"Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community." It's reliably a marker of bad comments and worse threads.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: your account has repeatedly been posting flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments. Would you please stop that? It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.

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