owning a john deere was once a symbol of a liberated man
Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
81–90 of 184 posts
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. Good. Sometimes we need regulation, otherwise bankers would crash the economy while getting bailouts with taxpayer money, workers would be paid below minimum wage, child labor would be rampant, and so on. The government is supposed to represent the people, although clearly money is the real voting power today. I'd like to see John Deere get sued into…
> Sometimes we need regulation, otherwise bankers would crash the economy while getting bailouts with taxpayer money... I honestly can't tell if this is meant to be satire.
it's all about the money, no matter the cost, that's why they mostly operate in grey zones/areas, always trying to circumvent the law somehow. "What do you mean we can't dump all the waste into the river? we actually have to dispose it properly and pay for it?"
and I get it they want to increase their profit. Even if a company wanted to dispose it properly he won't be able to offer competitive prices if nobody else does it
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#83I dont understand why people keep buying JD tractors. They have a reputation for reliability, so do many other brands. Kubota, Deutz, Fent, Massy, Case, New Holland... a bunch more. It's amazing the brand loyalty hold JD have on farmers.
Dealer proximity and local parts availability play a pretty big role.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cars are not industrial equipment though and the insurance liabilities on those are different. https://www.mcguirewoods.com/news-resources/publications/us-... It has similar Misuse or Alteration of Product defense... but... https://ggrmlawfirm.com/blog/personal-injury/car-customizati... > A hobbyist who does his or her own customization work often assumes the risk that some part of the work wasn’t completed correctly…
> For industrial equipment, that doesn't exist. If you can make a change to the industrial equipment and the equipment manufacturer doesn't try to stop you, the equipment manufacturer is likely liable for damages. So put it into the agreement? I don't see how this is an onerous barrier; if companies can force arbitration based on the sales agreement, they should be able to (within reason) dodge liability for the effe…
Since the product liability reforms of the 80s and 90s, makers of industrial equipment haven't been able to do that. https://hbr.org/1987/09/product-liability-youre-more-exposed...
> Liability insurance premiums remain a tremendous burden for businesses in many industries. Legislation aimed at limiting liability, enacted just last year, has been declared unconstitutional. Moreover, some U.S. courts are moving toward standards that will actually increase liability, even for businesses not at fault under the traditional legal doctrines.
Secondly, consider who is bound by this agreement? The person who purchased it? or the person who is operating it? Watch the video that I linked - https://youtu.be/NdN577BbnSY . The case study begins at 21:43 with a Massey tractor and a Brush Hog mower. Pay close attention to the design in the guarding claims at 33:48 and the lessons at 43:17.
Product liability for industrial equipment can't just be signed away by the person purchasing it.
Don't get me wrong - I am for right to repair. It has impacts across many areas including national security, food security, and hobbyist interest. But I believe that we need to revisit product liability for industrial equipment when that comes into place... and when self driving cars come out and if you are allowed to load your own software on the car who do you think will be liable for a crash under current law? Who is responsible for showing that the (destroyed) vehicle had software modifications that went beyond the legally allowed changes (emissions, top speed, acceleration, etc...)?
I am for right to repair - I am concerned that the approaches that right to repair is using now ignores existing law and liabilities and will result in a much higher legal costs for manufacturers for repairs that they are forced to allow until the corresponding laws catch up to place the liability for changes to equipment back on the people who make and install those after market changes. And that in turn will cause a limiting of innovation and advancement in those areas and rolling back of other advancements to the point where the manufacturer can reasonably assume liability for changes that the purchaser may make.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
According to existing product liability law (if I'm reading this correctly, I am not a lawyer), if John Deer allows a farmer to insert an SD card with different firmware or settings or whatever, John Deer is still liable for the tractor even if it was changes that were made by the developer. If that 3rd party firmware overapplied fertilizer - JD would be liable. If the auto driving feature was modified and ran out in…
> all industrial equipment (including tractors) are classified as "unreasonably dangerous" and it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to prevent 3rd party modifications that may result in damages that could have been foreseen with the existing setup. This is not necessary. We can choose to not do this. Also "could have been foreseen" carries a lot of water here. These products shouldn't be unsafe to make minor…
The Brush Hog case that I mentioned elsewhere had a protective plate removed (it was apparently commonly removed by farmers) and attached to an older tractor. When the operator (not the owner who made the change) was mutilated from the mower, Brush Hog was liable because it wasn't harder to remove that safety plate.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#86I dont understand why people keep buying JD tractors. They have a reputation for reliability, so do many other brands. Kubota, Deutz, Fent, Massy, Case, New Holland... a bunch more. It's amazing the brand loyalty hold JD have on farmers.
"I dont understand why people keep buying JD tractors."
Let's get closer to home: why do people buy Windows and Apples, despite a fair few free (really free) alternatives?
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#87I dont understand why people keep buying JD tractors. They have a reputation for reliability, so do many other brands. Kubota, Deutz, Fent, Massy, Case, New Holland... a bunch more. It's amazing the brand loyalty hold JD have on farmers.
"I dont understand why people keep buying JD tractors." Let's get closer to home: why do people buy Windows and Apples, despite a fair few free (really free) alternatives?
Tractors are more plug-replaceable than operating systems. There are only so many ways to eg turn over soil.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
kubota parts were faster for us to order since theyre used in construction all over the US and theyre a little more interchangeable, but you make that difference up with mahindra because you can fix more of it in the field to begin with.
Thank you for answering. I lived in a area where there were a lot of small and fairly poor farmers. I also had a machine shop. You can see where this is going: come harvest time tons of stuff that had been sitting for a year suddenly had to work 16 hours per day and predictably quite a bit of it would break in the field, usually simple stuff, bearings, shafts, welds. So once word got around that I was an ok welder wi…
Tightening emissions rules are having an effect on this, at least here in the US. My small late-model Kubota has a diesel particulate filter and a fair bit of electronics to manage it. I've been told that if you don't follow the emissions instructions, the system will shut down and a Kubota official will have to come out to "unlock" your tractor.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. Good. Sometimes we need regulation, otherwise bankers would crash the economy while getting bailouts with taxpayer money, workers would be paid below minimum wage, child labor would be rampant, and so on. The government is supposed to represent the people, although clearly money is the real voting power today. I'd like to see John Deere get sued into…
> Sometimes we need regulation, otherwise bankers would crash the economy while getting bailouts with taxpayer money... I honestly can't tell if this is meant to be satire.
No post body was provided.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
The free market as it relates to farming is pure kayfabe. Subsidised, targeted crops* sold only to approved customers using publicly-funded roads. *or even subsidising a lack of crops
the food supply also shouldn't be a free market. People speculating on food prices/availablity (or even worse, hoarding it to influence price) is usually not taken very kindly by the population or goverment because of the results in massive social upheaval. Food is actually subsidized to an extent, because not having your basic needs met usually results in massive undermining of the power of the state.
Yeah, a state which doesn't subsidize food production will not survive very long. It's a practice that dates as far back as the Akkadian Empire.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-worldhistory/cha...