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Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

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Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#71

Post by 8bitsrule »

cletus wrote: post #40

The example is of course egregious ($600 for a software update for a wire that got wet, basically). I fully support being able to repair your own stuff but I have no idea how you regulate this so companies don't gouge "owners" for aftermarket services. Earlier today there was a thread about e-bike battery prices (tl'dr they're ridiculous expensive). I really wish rechargeable batteries had interchangeable form factor…

> how you regulate this so companies don't gouge "owners" for aftermarket services.

For starters, it's not aftermarket! since the tractor belongs to JD, and it is licensed to the customer, and it failed to work because a wire got wet (shitty design), and only JD can determine and repair it ... that should be JD's cost, not the owner's.

>harsh truth

A harsher one: JD has a monopoly and is using it to strangle its own small business customers. Feels good to see it get run past Sherman - better to see it get run over.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#72

Post by indymike »

rafale wrote: post #45

John Deere will just claim they never sold him a tractor, but rather signed a custom contract with him that gives him access and custody of one in return of some constraints he agreed upon. If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. But you could argue it's already undermined, both by the government itself and the fact that somehow John Deere managed to achieve a monopoly in a sector critical t…

I suspect what will happen is an exhibition of Magnuson-Moss warranty act.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#73

Post by pessimizer »

ipaddr wrote: post #60
aaron_m04 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't John Deere just have customers sign away their right to sue or be party to a class action? They could make that a requirement for new customers or customers seeking repairs.

You shouldn't be able to sign those rights away.

It's like a corporate sharia law.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#74

Post by dghlsakjg »

Gustomaximus wrote: post #55

I dont understand why people keep buying JD tractors. They have a reputation for reliability, so do many other brands. Kubota, Deutz, Fent, Massy, Case, New Holland... a bunch more. It's amazing the brand loyalty hold JD have on farmers.

Is it a case of lock-in with accessories?

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#75

Post by [deleted] »

rafale wrote: post #45

John Deere will just claim they never sold him a tractor, but rather signed a custom contract with him that gives him access and custody of one in return of some constraints he agreed upon. If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. But you could argue it's already undermined, both by the government itself and the fact that somehow John Deere managed to achieve a monopoly in a sector critical t…

[deleted]

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#76

Post by pessimizer »

shagie wrote: post #53
heavyset_go wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any idiot who tinkers with cars can flash custom firmware on their car's ECU without a problem, and cars can very easily maim or kill users and the people around them. I don't buy this argument.

Cars are not industrial equipment though and the insurance liabilities on those are different. https://www.mcguirewoods.com/news-resources/publications/us-... It has similar Misuse or Alteration of Product defense... but... https://ggrmlawfirm.com/blog/personal-injury/car-customizati... > A hobbyist who does his or her own customization work often assumes the risk that some part of the work wasn’t completed correctly…

> For industrial equipment, that doesn't exist. If you can make a change to the industrial equipment and the equipment manufacturer doesn't try to stop you, the equipment manufacturer is likely liable for damages.

So put it into the agreement? I don't see how this is an onerous barrier; if companies can force arbitration based on the sales agreement, they should be able to (within reason) dodge liability for the effects of modifications they didn't approve.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#77

Post by [deleted] »

rafale wrote: post #45

John Deere will just claim they never sold him a tractor, but rather signed a custom contract with him that gives him access and custody of one in return of some constraints he agreed upon. If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. But you could argue it's already undermined, both by the government itself and the fact that somehow John Deere managed to achieve a monopoly in a sector critical t…

[deleted]

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#78

Post by dvt »

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #58
rafale wrote: post #45

John Deere will just claim they never sold him a tractor, but rather signed a custom contract with him that gives him access and custody of one in return of some constraints he agreed upon. If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. But you could argue it's already undermined, both by the government itself and the fact that somehow John Deere managed to achieve a monopoly in a sector critical t…

> If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. Good. Sometimes we need regulation, otherwise bankers would crash the economy while getting bailouts with taxpayer money, workers would be paid below minimum wage, child labor would be rampant, and so on. The government is supposed to represent the people, although clearly money is the real voting power today. I'd like to see John Deere get sued into…

> Sometimes we need regulation, otherwise bankers would crash the economy while getting bailouts with taxpayer money...

I honestly can't tell if this is meant to be satire.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#79

Post by pessimizer »

shagie wrote: post #61
Rygian wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we're not expecting farmers to be software engineers. But we expect they can hire actual software engineers other than Deere's.

According to existing product liability law (if I'm reading this correctly, I am not a lawyer), if John Deer allows a farmer to insert an SD card with different firmware or settings or whatever, John Deer is still liable for the tractor even if it was changes that were made by the developer. If that 3rd party firmware overapplied fertilizer - JD would be liable. If the auto driving feature was modified and ran out in…

> all industrial equipment (including tractors) are classified as "unreasonably dangerous" and it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to prevent 3rd party modifications that may result in damages that could have been foreseen with the existing setup.

This is not necessary. We can choose to not do this. Also "could have been foreseen" carries a lot of water here. These products shouldn't be unsafe to make minor repairs on any more than they should be unsafe to operate.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#80

Post by johnhowardstein »

rafale wrote: post #45

John Deere will just claim they never sold him a tractor, but rather signed a custom contract with him that gives him access and custody of one in return of some constraints he agreed upon. If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. But you could argue it's already undermined, both by the government itself and the fact that somehow John Deere managed to achieve a monopoly in a sector critical t…

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