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Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

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Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#81

Post by janto »

pesenti wrote: post #26

Legality aside, this is a terrible and naive way to think of DEI. Candidates recruited this way will have a stigma attached to them (“they were recruited because they were X”). A better way is to enforce DSA - Diverse Slate Approach - which ensure that you don’t recruit anybody without having considered multiple genders and/or ethnicity before making the offer. The goal of DSA is to recruit the best candidate for the…

The E in DEI is for Equity, not Equality. It is outcome focused, and not about equal opportunity. DSA would technically be insufficient if you were maximizing DEI.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#82

Post by throwbigdata »

umvi wrote: post #49

A similar thing happened at a previous company I worked for. We had lots of male candidates apply to an opening but only one female candidate. The female candidate was by far the weakest and I strongly advised not hiring her, but I was overridden by higher ups desperate to improve DEI and she was the candidate hired.

How did they do?

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#83

Post by int0x2e »

pesenti wrote: post #26

Legality aside, this is a terrible and naive way to think of DEI. Candidates recruited this way will have a stigma attached to them (“they were recruited because they were X”). A better way is to enforce DSA - Diverse Slate Approach - which ensure that you don’t recruit anybody without having considered multiple genders and/or ethnicity before making the offer. The goal of DSA is to recruit the best candidate for the…

The issue with DSA is that some hiring managers will inevitably try to game the system. A friend once shared a strategy he saw at BigCorp - a hiring manager would fill the pipeline with 10 quality applicants, but if none of them matched the diversity requirement, that manager would add 2-3 diversity candidates that were horrible fits. They still started the interview loop, but failed miserably compared to a normal candidate, and no interviewer could really be ignore the difference in the CVs.

I personally really want be part of a diverse and inclusive team, but so far, all attempts to "enforce" D&I I've seen or heard of inevitably failed in some form or another. I would argue that the biggest issue has to do with supply, not demand for diverse talent, and resolving that will take a while sadly.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#84

Post by giantg2 »

systemvoltage wrote: post #71
pesenti wrote: post #26

Legality aside, this is a terrible and naive way to think of DEI. Candidates recruited this way will have a stigma attached to them (“they were recruited because they were X”). A better way is to enforce DSA - Diverse Slate Approach - which ensure that you don’t recruit anybody without having considered multiple genders and/or ethnicity before making the offer. The goal of DSA is to recruit the best candidate for the…

What good is diversity when everyone thinks alike and they just look different (skin pigmentation)? IMO diversity is about diversity of thought. If they happen to look different, fine. If I were to grow our team, I would want people with diverse range of convictions and opinions. DEI crowd in silicon valley has no diversity of thought. It is a monoculture. Also, depending on industry or company objectives, sometimes…

God, if only.

I'm at a non-tech company nowhere near SV. Diversity of thought is a joke. The company tells us to be candid, which is also a joke. I've been punished, both directly and indirectly, for speaking my mind and bringing up inconsistencies (respectfully).

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#85

Post by lolinder »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #66

When filling out forms when it includes DIE questions, the best approach is to check all the boxes. If anyone questions it they can land themselves in real deep water. The best way to combat this nonsense is peaceful protesting.

They don't have to question your checked boxes to your face, they can just immediately reject you when it's obvious you're not what they're actually looking for.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#86

Post by wyager »

buro9 wrote: post #47

Extremely likely you would be breaking the law by discriminating against anyone not female. The way to do this properly is by "Positive Action" (when all else is equal, prefer a candidate that fulfils a diversity criteria)... not to be confused with "Positive Discrimination" (the setting of quotas or in your case excluding a demographic from being considered for the role). You can find an example of this enshrined in…

> The way to do this properly is by "Positive Action" (when all else is equal, prefer a candidate that fulfils a diversity criteria)... not to be confused with "Positive Discrimination" (the setting of quotas or in your case excluding a demographic from being considered for the role).

The only difference between these two things is perhaps a matter of degree. The net result is that you preferentially hire a group based on sex/race/etc.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#87

Post by mimikatz »

Not a lawyer take

1. Likely illegal

2. Likely no one will ever care

3. On the off chance they do care, very unlikely you will be in any trouble or hurt by it

4. It is a bigger risk to question it

5. This is wrong and bad, but choosing if you want to fight it is a hard choice.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#88

Post by e67f70028a46fba »

systemvoltage wrote: post #71
pesenti wrote: post #26

Legality aside, this is a terrible and naive way to think of DEI. Candidates recruited this way will have a stigma attached to them (“they were recruited because they were X”). A better way is to enforce DSA - Diverse Slate Approach - which ensure that you don’t recruit anybody without having considered multiple genders and/or ethnicity before making the offer. The goal of DSA is to recruit the best candidate for the…

What good is diversity when everyone thinks alike and they just look different (skin pigmentation)? IMO diversity is about diversity of thought. If they happen to look different, fine. If I were to grow our team, I would want people with diverse range of convictions and opinions. DEI crowd in silicon valley has no diversity of thought. It is a monoculture. Also, depending on industry or company objectives, sometimes…

It all starts to make sense when you understand that it is really a intra-white social hierarchy contest, rooted in ethnic origins: anglo-Puritan virtue signaling, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#90

Post by throwbigdata »

scarface74 wrote: post #57

I am a minority and I find it disgusting. If you want to increase diversity - don’t give internal referrals more weight than external applications. Recruit from a diversity of schools or heck I’m even okay with training programs that help underrepresented groups prepare for tech interviews by targeting schools like HBCUs and local non prestigious schools. On the other hand, I mentored a female intern last summer. Aft…

Attractive guys too!
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