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Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

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Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#71
post #26

Legality aside, this is a terrible and naive way to think of DEI. Candidates recruited this way will have a stigma attached to them (“they were recruited because they were X”). A better way is to enforce DSA - Diverse Slate Approach - which ensure that you don’t recruit anybody without having considered multiple genders and/or ethnicity before making the offer. The goal of DSA is to recruit the best candidate for the…

What good is diversity when everyone thinks alike and they just look different (skin pigmentation)? IMO diversity is about diversity of thought. If they happen to look different, fine. If I were to grow our team, I would want people with diverse range of convictions and opinions.

DEI crowd in silicon valley has no diversity of thought. It is a monoculture.

Also, depending on industry or company objectives, sometimes you don't want diversity of thought at all. You want coworkers that are aligned on a particular niche objective and have similar opinions especially if the company is trying to do something unconventional. Diversity hurts there and having people with various backgrounds is a disadvantage.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#72
post #7

A quick web search finds some answers. eg https://www.spigglelaw.com/employment-blog/employers-affirma... """ Title VII prohibits employers from making employment decisions because of an individual’s skin color, national origin, sex, religion, or race. Therefore, it is illegal to give an applicant an advantage solely because of the applicant’s race. However, this is not always the case. Under United Steelworkers of A…

> So, uh, it depends.

Yep. I highly doubt we have enough info in the original question to give legal advice even if any of us were lawyers. We simply don't know enough about the company to know how the courts would see it.

My advice to OP: consult a lawyer. The law is fuzzy, and we don't have enough information to give a good answer.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#73
"must be female"

Yes? It's illegal. This instruction removes the chance of any other member type of that protected class from being hired.

You can report it to the NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or your state AG. You'll have to document everything while being careful not to break any recording/privacy laws. Not sure anything will really be done. Probably just bring hardship on yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#74
Maybe ask about what this policy means for non-binary people and see if it makes them squirm.

One of the reasons why a lot of SV companies like Google have a problem with diversity is because they focus almost all of their recruiting drives on a few schools and hire mostly people with degrees from those schools, which themselves have diversity problems.

If you keep going to the same wells you shouldn't be surprised to buy find different results.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#75
post #26

Legality aside, this is a terrible and naive way to think of DEI. Candidates recruited this way will have a stigma attached to them (“they were recruited because they were X”). A better way is to enforce DSA - Diverse Slate Approach - which ensure that you don’t recruit anybody without having considered multiple genders and/or ethnicity before making the offer. The goal of DSA is to recruit the best candidate for the…

> this is a terrible and naive way to think of DEI

No, it isn’t. OP is describing the intended use of DEI. A proper merit based approach would have 0 knowledge of race, gender, etc. DSA as well requires prior knowledge of irrelevant attributes of a candidate because its goal is to increase the representation of people with those attributes, not hire the best candidates.

Any process trying to select for the best developer does not need to know about race, gender, etc. Any process that asks for those is not looking for the best developers.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#76

I'd file it under affirmative action [1], which is not illegal in most countries/states (on the contrary). Lots of commenters here simply cite single paragraphs from anti-discrimination laws but what they don't understand is that the laws often allow organizations to correct bias by giving preferential treatment to underrepresented groups. The logic behind is that the majority group (e.g. white caucasian young males)…

I'd file it as a violation of title VII of the civil rights act:

"It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964#Title...

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#77
post #26

Legality aside, this is a terrible and naive way to think of DEI. Candidates recruited this way will have a stigma attached to them (“they were recruited because they were X”). A better way is to enforce DSA - Diverse Slate Approach - which ensure that you don’t recruit anybody without having considered multiple genders and/or ethnicity before making the offer. The goal of DSA is to recruit the best candidate for the…

This is just what OP is experiencing with extra steps. Here's why:

1. Find merit based, good, but (unfortunately) majority candidate. 2. Position is held open, the meritorious engineer is waiting for an offer. 3. A few minority position trickle in that are nearly as good but not quite. 4. DEI argues you should choose the minority and uses an excuse like "they're trainable" to justify racist hiring practices.

In both these systems you really only wanted to use racist recruiting practices to hire non-white non-males. But to get around the legal concern step (4) gives you plausible deniability.

It is no surprise that your average person thinks these hiring practices are racist and they lead to tokenization of the very group you're trying to protect. Consequently all the "hidden bias" DEI bleets on about is brought on by them. Things like "they were only hired/promoted because they fit in X category" where X is something innate and uncontrollable. It is not "racist" to look at a minority coworker differently if you know for the fact they weren't hired on merit. No different than the CEO's son getting a promotion to VP. Both people are undeserving.

I am in the "majority" and have been passed up on promotions and probably not hired in several jobs because of things like this. Thanks to step (4) it is difficult to sue, but it would bring me great pleasure to take a company to court because of this.

DEI should be renamed DIE to reflect it's true nature at a company. The extremist, racist, wing of HR.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#78
post #49

A similar thing happened at a previous company I worked for. We had lots of male candidates apply to an opening but only one female candidate. The female candidate was by far the weakest and I strongly advised not hiring her, but I was overridden by higher ups desperate to improve DEI and she was the candidate hired.

So the company's performance suffers and their competition who don't indulge in DIE will benefit from those male candidates.

Sounds like another case of "go woke go broke". This is why we see a lot of progressive policies in academia and government... Where losing money doesn't matter.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#79
No, unless women are not a minority in that job bucket at your employer. Remediation for insufficient diversity is acceptable. Gratuitous hiring of “do nothing” / “under spec” employees is not, but that’s not in play in your case. I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#80
Many tech companies are actively discriminating against asian/white males. Often it is tech companies run by asian/white males. Affirmative action is the default policy.

The main way I've seen this implemented is by controlling who gets recruited through LinkedIn. Obviously qualified asian/white men simply get skipped over, filtered out, in many cases. They never even know they were discriminated against.

The other way is that managers are highly "encouraged" to say yes on hires that they would on the merits say no to.

As a hiring manager, I was told by an HR recruiter that there would be "problems" if my next hire wasn't a "DIBs candidate" (Diversity Inclusion Belonging) after hiring two non-URM (Under Represented Minority) candidates in a row.

All I would receive in the way of candidates to interview were non-asian/white males. And most were obviously unqualified based on the technical screening criteria we had established.

The big question is whether the current policy of tech companies is legal, ethical, and effective in the long-term or whether it's a short-term fix that causes long-term harm.

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