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22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

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Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#101

Post by zulban »

fortran77 wrote: post #99
danielrpa wrote: post #10

Amazing! "Zeloof says he doesn’t know for sure what he wants to do after graduating this spring" - I hope we don't hear later that he went to work for FAANG. One the saddest things about Big Tech is how they take young talent away from innovative, potentially competing enterprises and into busy work internal projects just because they can.

Translation: "I don't (or can't) work for a FAANG, so this kid shouldn't either." This line of thought is absurd. We have no idea where this individual wants to work, and we're here tearing apart a hypothetical job choice.

Your comment reminds me of "those that can't do, teach". This is just a jaded insult. You know nothing about who you're replying to.

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#102

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

tagoregrtst wrote: post #80
andi999 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright might be a problem.

Thats an interesting comment. IANAL but The patent, how you’d typically protect the chips, have long expired. But the chip could have been protected as a work of art under copyright. However that would cover only a very similar layout of the transistors. Functionally identical chips wouldn't be covered even if they weren’t re-created from scratch. Didnt Nintendo do something similar with the MOS6502?

Chip layouts are typically covered by a separate copyright-like regime with different rules (most notably a much shorter period of exclusivity) [1]. I believe the original NMOS 6502 and the derived Nintendo/Ricoh 2A03 both predate these laws, so Ricoh only had to worry about patent infringement.

That being said, many chips also contain code (e.g. firmware, microcode) that is potentially eligible for copyright independently of the chip layout.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit_layout_desi...

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#103

Post by yarky »

nicoburns wrote: post #96
TrackerFF wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to compete with FAANG, Finance, and Consulting. Unfortunately, that's where a lot of people end up.

Yes, and that's why we should be taxing the hell out of these companies. It's not just about raising revenue. It's about allowing other companies to compete with them.

What's the logic here? Do you somehow think that taxes will encourage innovation ?

Anybody can compete, but apparently most of us choose not to. Who forces a young talent to settle for a job instead of taking the risk to innovate ? Maybe risk-taking for innovation is what could be the encouraged through taxation.

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#104

Post by kortex »

Someone wrote: post #87

I wonder what kind of chemicals he uses to do all the etching and cleaning of silicon surfaces. Whatever it is, it must require careful handling. And that in his parents’ garage.

> Instead of a standard HF etch, a buffered oxide etch of NH4F (Ammonium Fluoride) in HF can be used to control the etch rate and photoresist lifting. I use approximately 20-30g of 100% NH4F per 50mL of HF (stock whink rust remover) and etch time for 6000Å SiO2 is 20min at 20C. A couple drops of Triton X-100 nonionic surfactant may be added to the BOE to improve etch uniformity, wetting, and ensure consistency through a thicker resist. A good BOE recipe can be found here but assumes industrial-strength HF.

http://sam.zeloof.xyz/sio2-patterning/

See my other threads. HF is Serious Business, but approachable for the hobbyist if you know about chemical hygiene. You can buy Whink at the hardware store.

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#105

Post by halpert »

ipaddr wrote: post #100
halpert wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe “it’s not fair to have subordinates earn more” was the justification given to you, but businesses rarely make decisions based on what’s fair. Engineers are valuable, but individual engineers are largely replaceable. Being able to coordinate a large group successfully also has a lot of value.

Let's be honest. Engineer managers are largely replacable and more easily than individual engineers. The pool is larger and can accept more manager unrelated experience. There is more to this. As the person senior leadership communicates with this person is seen as more important than they are. Senior leadership wants to maintain a leveling system to separate groups of people. It's a hedge a flat organization which m…

Then why don’t companies adopt a flatter structure with higher compensated engineers? The goal of a company is to make money after all. If management could be removed and top engineers retained with higher salaries, then a company would surely have an advantage in the marketplace. Since this doesn’t happen, there must be more to the picture than people in upper management simply clinging to their jobs. If removing middle management were so obvious a change to make, then shareholders would demand it.

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#106

Post by hnthrowaway0315 »

I'm more interested how he managed to master the knowledge of chip manufacturing plus a ton of electronics repairs (see his microscope and other equipment) at such an early age. Very admirable.

Look at what he did:

> Photolithography machines are expensive—up to $150 million—and so Zeloof made his own by bolting a modified conference room projector bought on Amazon onto a microscope. It projects his designs at tiny scale onto silicon wafers that Zeloof coats in material sensitive to ultraviolet light.

> One of Zeloof’s best finds was a broken electron microscope that cost $250,000 in the early ’90s; he bought it for $1,000 and repaired it. He uses it to inspect his chips for flaws, as well as the nanostructures on butterfly wings.

Damn this guy is good.

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#107

Post by fortran77 »

zulban wrote: post #101
fortran77 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Translation: "I don't (or can't) work for a FAANG, so this kid shouldn't either." This line of thought is absurd. We have no idea where this individual wants to work, and we're here tearing apart a hypothetical job choice.

Your comment reminds me of "those that can't do, teach". This is just a jaded insult. You know nothing about who you're replying to.

> You know nothing about who you're replying to.

And you do?

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#108

Post by jcun4128 »

giantg2 wrote: post #41
dang wrote: post #2

Past related threads. Others? A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28263714 - Aug 2021 (13 comments) DIY Silicon: Man Builds Integrated Circuit That's Similar to Intel's 4004 CPU - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28208614 - Aug 2021 (6 comments) Making 100 transistors silicon integrated circuit chips in your garage - https://news.ycombinator.com…

Looks like someone has a thing for homemade chips :) These links are really helpful. Maybe I'll try making one someday.

Not directly related but saw Applied Science make an LCD in a video, was really interesting seemed more tangible.

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#109

Post by astura »

DebtDeflation wrote: post #66
futharkshill wrote: post #25

> Zeloof’s family was supportive but also cautious. His father asked a semiconductor engineer he knew to offer some safety advice. As impressive and independent as this is, you have to wonder if any other gifted child could have done the same feat. The article seems to skip over this point, how many people know a "semiconductor engineer"?

This is a story as old as time. When I was a kid growing up in the 1970s and 1980s and the school held science fairs, the kids whose parents were scientists and engineers had the coolest fair-winning projects while the rest of the kids made baking soda and vinegar volcanoes or lemon batteries.

I would have been ecstatic to even make a baking soda and vinegar volcano or lemon battery. The poor schools didn't have science fairs or anything like that.

Uh, I was just reminded of something - when I was a kid (5th grade) I was gifted a book of science experiments for kids. I was only able to do maybe 1 experiment in the book because I didn't have access to any materials needed for the experiments. Those books should come with a warning or something, cause I remember being like "what kid has access to this stuff? Where do you even buy this stuff?"

This isn't meant to be a "Woe is me" story, just trying to give some context.

Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage

#110

Post by strikelaserclaw »

xvector wrote: post #20
TrackerFF wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to compete with FAANG, Finance, and Consulting. Unfortunately, that's where a lot of people end up.

TC isn't everything. I'm pulling truly bonkers TC at 26, and yet I feel a deep void inside me. I recently realized that this void is because I am not living by my ideals/purpose. I know what I want to do in life, I know how I want to contribute to the story of humanity, and yet I am letting my greed overrule me and force me into a different path. Essentially, I am betraying myself, and this causes that feeling of unf…

Don't listen to the negativity, Software Engineers are paid handsomely, if you find that your dream path isn't working out you can always return to highly paid work and make up pretty fast.
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