Whenever this comes up I like to say it would be nice to reinvent small scale chip fab with less toxic materials if possible.
22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
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Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#82Does anyone have an idea whether there is a potential hobbyist market for home-grown chips of this size? I know that I would definitely be willing to spend around $100 for a much smaller chip, like quad-gates or slightly above (1200 transistors is way beyond what I thought is possible in a garage), more the larger the chip gets, and ultimately including getting involved in the design of the chip -- but then of course…
I could see a market if he built this into a small box, like the size of a photocopier.
Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
All the research that was founded by tax dollars in the 70s before all the research was privatised (like nor more scientific publications how it was done etc).
absolutely believe this 100%. and even if isn't publicly funded, under capitalism wage laborers are shorted when they get paid a wage and their code becomes the private property of a capitalist. so yeah, i agree with your framing 100%. my question was more: what is the short laundry list of the exact developments/research that allowed Zeloof's garage-size/at-home chip-making?
I have a superficial understanding of photolithography, but I'd guess the stuff he's doing is described pretty well in undergraduate textbooks, and he got loads of equipment very cheap as it's obsolete for commercial or even academic use.
Further, capital costs will rapidly start rising as well as the required knowhow as the feature size shrinks, so I think he's already quite close to the limit a one person hobby project can achieve.
All this being said, this is an extremely impressive achievement. There's a long way from reading how stuff is supposed to work, to actually doing it your garage. My hat's off to Mr. Zeloof.
Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#84Does anyone have an idea whether there is a potential hobbyist market for home-grown chips of this size? I know that I would definitely be willing to spend around $100 for a much smaller chip, like quad-gates or slightly above (1200 transistors is way beyond what I thought is possible in a garage), more the larger the chip gets, and ultimately including getting involved in the design of the chip -- but then of course…
I think the market is larger than we think (at least for a couple more gens mature chips) , but very fragmented.
The analog desinger that wants a few hundred copies of a circuit using matched transistors.
Ferrari willing to spend 10K a piece for a silly automotive chip
I can see a market for very flexible small scale fabs
The security paranoid who want a simple CPU they can trust at an optical scale they can verify (ie imageable to compare with what they ordered)
Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#85Am I stupid for looking for Pringles or lays pack in the thumbnail?
Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
Comfortable money + marketing hype keep it that way unfortunately. If governments really wanted to prioritise innovation, they should consider giving a banker's salary to a research scientist.
At least in the US, they're generally limited to salaries on the "general schedule", and management gets paid more than technical people, because "it wouldn't be fair" to have subordinates that make more than you. So there's a built-in glass ceiling for tech careers. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...
Maybe “it’s not fair to have subordinates earn more” was the justification given to you, but businesses rarely make decisions based on what’s fair. Engineers are valuable, but individual engineers are largely replaceable. Being able to coordinate a large group successfully also has a lot of value.
Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#87I wonder what kind of chemicals he uses to do all the etching and cleaning of silicon surfaces.
Whatever it is, it must require careful handling. And that in his parents’ garage.
Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are PLDs still a thing? They can implement most anything a really low density chip like this could.
PLDs evolved to FPGAs, which are far more powerful for that price. Homegrown chips would only be interesting for someone who regards ASIC design as an end, not a means, hence hobbyists.
There's also some overlap with PAL and GAL chips, which you can still buy, and might still be acceptable to some hobbyists.
Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#89Whenever this comes up I like to say it would be nice to reinvent small scale chip fab with less toxic materials if possible.
What are the toxic chemicals used in chip fab? (serious question) I have literally all the chemicals mentioned in the first chart on this page in my modest maker garage, sans arsenic and phosphine; though anyone with certain rat poisons would have them.
There doesn't seem anything more toxic than what you would find in your run-of-the-mill chemical research lab. One time I got to handle a few liters of trimethylsilylcyanide (at work, not in my garage lol), that was an exciting day in the lab.
This is but one example of articles I've read talking about how "toxic" chip fab is...and I'm like, have you seen the coal industry?
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/reevaluating-the-toxic...
> Aside from being caustic, many commonly-used chemicals are known human carcinogens. Some examples that can carry high risk are toluene, acetone, methylene chloride (DCM), xylene, chloroform, and isopropyl alcohol.
You mean paint stripper? Granted, DCM is being phased out, but I've worked with gallons of the stuff. Xylene/toluene are in spray paint. Acetone and isopropanol are literally under my bathroom sink. Acetone is straight-up not a carcinogen, and IPA is carcinogenic in the same way bacon and beer are carcinogenic. Like, technically yes, but it's not exactly methyl iodide.
> Others—like glycol ethers—may even cause reproductive harm.
You mean windex? Contains ethyl/butyl glycol ether (cellosolve).
Sure later in the article they mention mercury, cadmium, tellurium, those are pretty yucky. But how many NiCd batteries do consumers improperly dispose of every day?
Chip fab is probably no worse than your average autobody garage/paint shop combined with a metal plating facility. Yeah don't go dumping your effluents in landfills or storm drains, but we already have protocols and pipelines for chemical hygiene and waste management.
Chip fab actually has the advantage of tons of money to throw at proper chemical hygiene, unlike fossil fuel industry with razor thin margins.
Can we do something about the mining, fracking, and coal burning industries though?
Re: 22-year-old builds chips in his parents’ garage
#90Amazing! "Zeloof says he doesn’t know for sure what he wants to do after graduating this spring" - I hope we don't hear later that he went to work for FAANG. One the saddest things about Big Tech is how they take young talent away from innovative, potentially competing enterprises and into busy work internal projects just because they can.
> innovative, potentially competing enterprises
I feel like there hasn't been many of these recently. And the few that have been around get massive financing rounds that dilute options into nothing and never go ipo