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Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

cen.acs.org

111–120 of 120 posts

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#111
post #17

Yes, this is the case due to the enormous scale of production. Replacing the hydrogen source at similar scales with electrolysis is plausible with base load power generation. The cost increase is a small integer factor, and in the bigger scheme of things is likely something we can adapt to at least for agriculture. An obvious challenge is that we don't have available green base load power -- nuclear, hydro, or geothe…

> Replacing the hydrogen source at similar scales with electrolysis is plausible with base load power generation. There is no need to tie this to base load power generation. In fact, quite the opposite: A lot of the electrolysis projects and the funding happening right now is targetted at using electrolysis as a compensation for fluctuating renewables. This makes sense: We have cheap, green electricity, however havin…

There is significant downstream cost associated with intermittent hydrogen production. Just because it is possible to produce hydrogen from irregular power sources does not imply that the downstream process chemistry can efficiently operate that way. As a rule, you want to run a continuous process for cost/waste reasons. Ammonia isn't craft beer. You really don't want to micro-batch a 100 million tons of industrial chemical production unless you are okay with being extremely wasteful of materials and energy.

You can solve the intermittency problem by building plant that acts as a hydrogen buffer to smooth out irregularities in hydrogen production. This substantially increases Capex/Opex that must be added to the cost of hydrogen that is already significantly more expensive than methane reformation. At some point, insisting that every step of the industrial chemistry process be done in a dis-economic way accumulates untenable product costs.

People need to be realistic about what is achievable at scale and the influence of economics.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still use methane as your hydrogen source for ammonia production if you do CO2 capture and storage when you produce the hydrogen. This is often called blue hydrogen, as opposed to green hydrogen from electrolysis and gray hydrogen from methane witgout CO2 capture and storage. Most of the oil and gas companies are partly betting the farm on H2 from CH4 with CO2 capture and storage as a major source of energy i…

Many people regard CO2 capture and storage as an attempt by the oil and gas industry to be able to green-wash what they current do without actually having to change anything.

I agree it's easy to spin it that way. But I do also think it's true that we can scale up CO2 capture and storage one or two orders of magnitude more quickly than we can scale up renewables. And we will need that capability.

Just take solar power in Europe as an example. It is projected that we need to install 300 GW of solar in the next three years. But the rate of new installations has been basically flat at about 20-25 GW per year for the past 10 years.

Or take wind - we are going to install 21 GW this year, but next year that number will decrease due to constraints in permits and transmission grid capacity. To meet climate targets we need to add at least 30 GW per year.

At this point it's simple math that renewables cannot be deployed quickly enough.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#113
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. How would two more orders of magnitude reduction make things better? We don't want to go back to the 1700s, so going back to the dawn of history is better? What would North Korea be able to produce without 2/3rds of its population and without China?

He means, CO2 as a problem requires us to reduce our additions to the atmosphere by roughly 100%. This is entirely possible, mostly by no longer burning fossil fuels, which is the prime contributer to the problem. It is not practical or possible via population growth reduction, which has basically already happened (people live longer so there's a delay in the result being seen, but we've basically peaked already). Un…

>roughly 100%.

I don't understand the use of "roughly" here. A reduction can be and often is, expressed as a ratio.

Is 90% roughly 100%? Is 99%? Is 99.9%?

As ratios, these are reductions of 10x, 100x, 1000x, and as ratios they can increase without limit. So what is roughly 100% and why is it necessary?

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#114
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to flip this excess electricity idea. The cheapest power is solar and wind. If you build an ammonia plant, the cheapest way to get the power you need is to build solar and wind. You can sell some excess to other grid users when you have too much, and you can stop production on very short timescales to help balance the grid during peaks but overall you'll be able to predict energy production years in advan…

Green hydrogen becomes a source of more dispatchable excess power on the grid. This is more valuable than just randomly available power on the grid. Those renewables powering the ammonia plant can be diverted to sell to the grid when prices there are high.

Ammonia burns fine in a diesel engine with almost no modification, just swap the fuel pumps and injectors.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#115
post #70
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least the poison is very concentrated and easy to store. CO2 in the atmosphere is "forever" too, and much harder to deal with.

Not really, the most abundant life forms on earth consume CO2 to grow. Of course not at the rate we would like (especially with current coverage and that we’re still freeing more carbon daily by chopping down more forests).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_cycle

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#116

This is very interesting from an agricultural perspective. According to the Wikipedia article for ammonia, “In the US as of 2019, approximately 88% of ammonia was used as fertilizers”. To me this is a very interesting and damning fact with regards to current dominant agricultural practices. Yet another reason that it would be beneficial to further redevelop closed loop nutrient systems. For instance, sewage solids fr…

I wonder why you see his chemical weapons developments during WW1 as a particularly egregious sin.

My great grandfather was on the front lines in France and was gassed several times. To the day he died you could see the veins in his eyes from that experience, but when I went to the local VFW with him as a child and saw the men with no arms or no legs - the product of boring old TNT and shrapnel - I would always ask myself why we handwave that as the costs of war.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#117
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He means, CO2 as a problem requires us to reduce our additions to the atmosphere by roughly 100%. This is entirely possible, mostly by no longer burning fossil fuels, which is the prime contributer to the problem. It is not practical or possible via population growth reduction, which has basically already happened (people live longer so there's a delay in the result being seen, but we've basically peaked already). Un…

>roughly 100%. I don't understand the use of "roughly" here. A reduction can be and often is, expressed as a ratio. Is 90% roughly 100%? Is 99%? Is 99.9%? As ratios, these are reductions of 10x, 100x, 1000x, and as ratios they can increase without limit. So what is roughly 100% and why is it necessary?

Given how long CO2 remains in the atmosphere, any reduction in CO2 emissions by less than 99.9% of the current emission rate sustained for less than a millennium is likely to result in severe negative consequences. Likewise, because the damage is done by the quantity in the air rather than the instantaneous rate of emissions and absorption — the former being the integral of the other two — we need to make these changes much faster than the gradual reduction over one human lifetime of non-reproduction.

If you want to achieve this reduction just by population reduction — and not via technology, lifestyle changes, or any other solution — then you need a 99.9% population reduction.

If you want to solve it by enforcing lifestyle changes and no tech etc., then you have to wind the clock back to before the industrial revolution, before we could even mine so much fossil fuels in the first place.

The 1750 population of 760 million [0] was (with regards to CO2) sustainable, but the tech back then limited both the population and the emissions.

It’s like the correlation between shark attacks and ice cream consumption: Hot weather makes you eat ice cream and go swimming. Icecream-to-Sharks isn’t directly causal, and neither was the population in 1750 the direct causal reason that CO2 emissions were sustainable.

So you only get the “benefit” of 1750s population levels if you’re willing to also pay the technological cost. But not just the cost of not being able to grow food for 8 billion: it would be as if the 710 million absolutely worst off today were unchanged, while the other 50 million merely don’t have electricity let alone computers or the internet, paved roads let alone cars or bicycles or public transport, disease-free pressurised municipal water let alone modern flushing toilets or bottled soda or warm and safe showers, etc.

Those 50 million would be the super-rich of the new era.

And worse, because of the aforementioned long lifespan of CO2 in the atmosphere, you’d need to sustain this for about a thousand years despite everyone involved being much better off if they defect (Nash equilibrium).

That leaves green tech. Many purely technological solutions to greenhouse gases are already known. The challenge is to make the green solutions cheaper (because Nash equilibrium) than the polluting status quo for 99.9% of effective emissions. (Effective emissions rather than gross emissions, because some of the technological solutions are to take CO2 out of the air to make other chemicals with, and that’s fine).

(ZeroGravitas interpreted me correctly, FWIW).

[0] I’m approximating from these numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_historical_world_...

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

obviously not killing people. I'm just demoralized that low birth rates are stigmatized as they are correlated with lower GDP, when low birth rates are somewhat of a godsend in times like these. Then nations with low birth rates scramble to find ways to up the birth rates despite understanding the C02 cost. It's ironic, really.

> low birth rates are stigmatized as they are correlated with lower GDP You have this backwards

the case in point was obviously Japan which fell from the third largest economy to the sixth largest in the past two decades.

Japan wants to be like China and the US, not like Qatar or Switzerland.

GDP is not GDP/Capita

I believe you have this backwards.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#119
post #117
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>roughly 100%. I don't understand the use of "roughly" here. A reduction can be and often is, expressed as a ratio. Is 90% roughly 100%? Is 99%? Is 99.9%? As ratios, these are reductions of 10x, 100x, 1000x, and as ratios they can increase without limit. So what is roughly 100% and why is it necessary?

Given how long CO2 remains in the atmosphere, any reduction in CO2 emissions by less than 99.9% of the current emission rate sustained for less than a millennium is likely to result in severe negative consequences. Likewise, because the damage is done by the quantity in the air rather than the instantaneous rate of emissions and absorption — the former being the integral of the other two — we need to make these chang…

>because the damage is done by the quantity in the air

Given this is true, then there's no particular reason to think that even 100% reduction of emissions would meet any goal.

I think you've just explained why carbon capture on a huge scale and carbon-free power might be necessary.

But if so, then I don't see "99.9%" as being connected to anything.

>So you only get the “benefit” of 1750s population levels if you’re willing to also pay the technological cost.

Here's a misunderstanding between us. I take for granted that "willing" isn't a factor, that 1/10th of the population would be unable to maintain current technology, that most, although not all, of technological advancement has come from increased population allowing more specialization.

>Those 50 million would be the super-rich of the new era.

It seems like something is missing in the previous paragraph, why do 50 million people have something different, and what is it?

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#120
post #119
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how long CO2 remains in the atmosphere, any reduction in CO2 emissions by less than 99.9% of the current emission rate sustained for less than a millennium is likely to result in severe negative consequences. Likewise, because the damage is done by the quantity in the air rather than the instantaneous rate of emissions and absorption — the former being the integral of the other two — we need to make these chang…

>because the damage is done by the quantity in the air Given this is true, then there's no particular reason to think that even 100% reduction of emissions would meet any goal. I think you've just explained why carbon capture on a huge scale and carbon-free power might be necessary. But if so, then I don't see "99.9%" as being connected to anything. >So you only get the “benefit” of 1750s population levels if you’re…

> Given this is true, then there's no particular reason to think that even 100% reduction of emissions would meet any goal.

There is, but it’s been outside the scope of this discussion.

The exact reduction needed depends on what level of damage your are willing to accept, but 99.9% reduction relative to current emissions is basically the threshold for maintaining static CO2 levels until all the fossil fuels are burned. This still isn’t amazing at current CO2 levels, but as it’s the (approximate) steady-state emissions level, it remains a useful approximation of maximum safe emissions regardless of what the actual concentration is.

More emissions? The concentration drifts upwards from whatever is deemed to be acceptable when you started.

> Here's a misunderstanding between us. I take for granted that "willing" isn't a factor, that 1/10th of the population would be unable to maintain current technology, that most, although not all, of technological advancement has come from increased population allowing more specialization.

We definitely have a misunderstanding, because I’m afraid I don’t follow your argument, and I sense I’m not even aware of what conclusions you’re trying to reach with them.

I will attempt to respond nevertheless.

If we go back to the pre-industrial age, even if you get near perfect buy-in from everyone alive today, nobody is going to think it was a good idea in retrospect, and in 80 years everyone will ignore any pleas from the ancestors in the history books to never return to all we have now. We just go through a hybrid of the Industrial Revolution and the renaissance, which sounds like an awesome setting for a novel but not actually that good for the environment.

By the time the new societies have enough spare capacity to fix what we can already fix, let alone the stuff we can’t, CO2 levels will be much much worse.

> It seems like something is missing in the previous paragraph, why do 50 million people have something different, and what is it?

I was focusing on the negatives explicitly to show why it won’t be accepted by basically anyone if you try this. To focus instead on what the rich will have:

“What” the 50 million have is business, property, pets (rather than livestock), and some limited travel. Might even be able to dig up and reuse old plastic etc. from the before times, but (returning to the negative because I don’t think I’ve fully emphasised how much this will suck) even for the rich, many things trivial in our society simply can’t be newly made at all in the scenario you’re describing, as that is some combination of unacceptable (if you allow modern fossil fuel power stations, the pollution per person is too high, so no aluminium) or simply impossible without ending the scenario (can’t develop a vaccine for a novel virus on a supercomputer because the world economy can’t afford to build the machines that build the machines that build the parts for the supercomputer, but even if it could, the tantalum mine needed for one specific component is both closed and probably in a different continent which is now only accessible by wooden boats and you don’t have any advance warning of Atlantic hurricanes forming).

The “why” is that this was what happened in every historical society of this type that I’m aware of. The rich 50 million is everyone who isn’t literally (in the medieval feudalism sense of the word) a peasant — not a very high bar by modern standards, but not passable without tech that one way or another breaks the scenario.

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