> Some forward-thinking people have set about evaluating key layouts objectively on metrics like these.
[...]
> What If You’re Bilingual?
On that topic some might be interested in this little analysis:
How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
111–120 of 148 posts
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#112Myself, I had already switched to Colemak when I developed RSI due to heavy typing at my work. What did it for me was the unnatural position of my hands, wrists bent upwards and outwards in order to fit onto the "tiny" laptop keyboard.
The solution was simply to switch to a run-of-the-mill ergonomic keyboard (ERGO K860) and surprise, surprise, my RSI lessened and eventually disappeared in 2 weeks or so.
So, for me it was definitely the hand posture, NOT the layout that caused the problems!
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#113It's amazing how there seems to be more talk about layouts than ways to type less in the first place.
What we really need is a study on RSI and productivity vs overall workflow.
We already know Vim guys can edit code fast, what we need to know is who does best on a real world project with more debugging, research, and documentation reading than coding, how much IDE autocomplete helps, whether the 10 clicks and 2 minutes it takes me to do something is healthier than the 3 lines and 30 seconds it takes a CLI user, etc.
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#114The bigger problem is not the layout it’s the keyboard itself, if you have rsi switching to an ergodox can improve the situation, if this is not enough something like a dactyl manuform or a kinesis advantage 360 should do the trick. This combined with light switches like tactile (MX brown) or linear (red) will reduce your pain immensely.
I wonder if anyone has studied the effects of different weights of switches. Personally I've always liked the lighter ones. The heavier ones felt uncomfortable and tiring. But I see people in the mechanical keyboard community praise the heavier switches, so I've always assumed that my hands are just weak. The worst ones I used were ones that I got because the MK community doesn't consider browns to be able to be in t…
I’m in the same box, I’ve tried Box Jade, Holy Pandas, MX Brown, Gateron Ink Black, Topre, MX Blues, Tangerine and Gateron Ink red. I also add some test switch zealio, etc…
But my favorite switch and daily driver are the gateron ink reds because they are so light.
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
The point of the QWERTY layout was to prevent jamming; the prototype layout was roughly alphabetical on the keyboard and jammed constantly, so it was refined to fix that mechanical problem. The part that is a myth was that they prevented jamming by “slowing typists down”. What they did is moved commonly adjacently pressed letters apart from each-other so they wouldn’t be pressed at about the same time. This was not d…
> The part that is a myth was that they prevented jamming by “slowing typists down”. What they did is moved commonly adjacently pressed letters apart from each-other so they wouldn’t be pressed at about the same time. This was not done explicitly to speed or slow typists (at the time, there was no established typing technique and there were no expert typists), except insofar as a constantly jammed keyboard was extrem…
There are an awful lot of people who develop RSI from keyboard use, nearly all of which is preventable. Better training would help a lot, but better designed equipment would also make a big difference. Changing the QWERTY association between keys and letters shouldn’t be the highest priority, but the advantage it has is that it can be done in software, without change to physical devices. Reshaping the keyboard to better match human anatomy would make a bigger difference.
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#116> Uncomfortable pinky movements
Any keyboard layout that leads to more ulnar deviation is simply a no-go for me. So Dovrak and Colemak are out, evidently (never tried them, but TFA says they use the pinky more, so if I believe that then I must not use them). Ideally the pinky should not be used at all for typing.
I've had to teach myself to not use one-handed modifier keystrokes that involve ulnar deviation. The key to this, for me, has been the sticky keys accessibility feature -- it works fantastically well for me. If you've never heard of sticky keys before then I highly recommend you look it up and try it. It's not that that I type every modifier combination keystroke using sticky keys, but that using sticky keys helped me unlearn bad habits.
Another key to this, for me, is to use vim and not emacs. Modal editing means not relying on modifier keys -- conversely, non-modal editing means being extremely dependent on modifier keys. IMO reaching for modifier keys is probably half the RSI picture, with resting wrists while typing being the other half.
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#117I switched to Dvorak in my 20's. I don't think i got faster, but my right-hand wrist which would irritate me and was one reason for the switch, definitely was more comfortable after, and hasn't given me any problems since. That said, switching was a huge pain in the ass.... like horrible for the first two months, and i promised myself i'd keep typing in both. However, i eventually lost the ability to type in qwerty,…
I switched to Dvorak from QWERTY without any special control/cmd mapping. As it turns out, it works out fine. I even vim'ed with it. It's just finger memory. The hjkl all in a row might help you remember/initially learn, but once you know which keys on Dvorak move you the right direction, it doesn't take any more time or concern you any more than hjkl on QWERTY do. You know which direction you want to move, and your…
Very well put. I continued using vim and other shortcuts normally through a Dvorak switch and a Workman switch. It's really not that big of a deal.
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#118I switched to Dvorak in my 20's. I don't think i got faster, but my right-hand wrist which would irritate me and was one reason for the switch, definitely was more comfortable after, and hasn't given me any problems since. That said, switching was a huge pain in the ass.... like horrible for the first two months, and i promised myself i'd keep typing in both. However, i eventually lost the ability to type in qwerty,…
I've never had issues with typing. It's the mouse that irritates my wrist. I swap it from side to side to alleviate the problem. i do have wider hands...
Could try a ball mouse, the one I use, has the thumb on the ball, and the normal fingers for the buttons.
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#119> One week or so ago I switched from Colemak to typing on QWYRFM due to the reduced load it places on the pinkies. I typed Dvorak for 10 years before I started getting RSI again in my right ulna. It turns out that the 'S' key being hit by the pinky in Dvorak caused me a lot of pain. I ended up switching to BEAKL, a pretty obscure layout which is specifically made to alleviate stress on the pinky. It moves the relativ…
I self taught myself to type and so don't really follow whatever is "proper" technique, so with WASD I tend to use my left pinky for SHIFT and nothing else.
This is surprisingly common. WASD-biased finger positioning. Also if you only use left shift it reinforces the habit since your pinky is what would normally press the a key. If you ever fix your typing technique (or just get curious), ESDF (instead of WASD) kinda fixes this. Your same fingers handle movement, but while also using proper homerow, and you free up space left on the movement keys where you could move stuff that was on ctrl and shift to the letters. (talking about the in-game key bindings here)
A few years ago I relearned qwerty with proper homerow, started using right shift, etc. I then later switched to Dvorak and then Workman. If I ever play a game I now set up the equivalent to qwerty ESDF in the controls, but with the letters of my layout. I sometimes also set backspace to jump instead of space because I use a split keyboard where I placed my space key on the right half thumb cluster and my right hand is on the mouse for games like Minetest and Xonotic.
Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
Data point. Old fart who switched to Dvorak eons ago, at age 16. It felt natural after 1 week, and felt more efficient than the ‘qwert sometime between weeks 2 and 3. I suspect young age greatly affects take-up speed. Good on ya for taking care of yourself, and switching when you did. Incidentally, at age 26, I used the “left-handed” Dvorak layout for 2 weeks while my right wrist and hand healed from a dirtbike crash…
I tried Dvorak on Android eight or ten years ago and realized that my Dvorak skill would not transfer to a touchscreen, since it consisted entirely of muscle memory and I had no experience of looking at a keyboard that was labeled that way. That and the lack of glide typing (which I've come to rely on) made it useless to me.
I've used dvorak and workman on Android, and although you don't exactly get perfect skill transfer, I like these layouts I've invested time in, I like the reminder that I put in that work, I like where the letters are. I am writing this very comment on my phone in workman. The consistency is nice, even if it's not consistency in something as useful as the tactile feel.
On the less-bright side, lack of other layouts on the PinePhone have made using it a bit torturous for anything extensive, and that makes me enjoy using mine for anything a bit less.