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How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

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Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#61

Post by zimpenfish »

wyre wrote: post #8
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #2

This is second hand info, so sorry if it's totally wrong, I'll edit this: E-ink tech is great, but patents and other paper-limitations are slowing down developments of cheap e-ink devices devices, and e-ink will become "great again", when patents expire. I personally see many, many usecases of e-ink all around me, but the prices are way too high for anything that is not either really small or a repurposed old existin…

I want to hook up a small e ink screen to a pi and use it with my mechanical keyboard as a modern typewriter of sorts but the prices on eink are so prohibitive it doesn’t seem worth it.

https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/inkplate-6 (800x600) seems ok for £99 (~$135) although it has its own embedded processor. Or you can get the slightly lower res https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/inky-impression-4 (640x400) with colour for £48 (~$65)

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#62

Post by ineedasername »

solarkraft wrote: post #46
ineedasername wrote: post #38

The article misses a significant device: Onyx Nova 3. The major difference between its prior color offering (poke 2) is the integration of a Wacom layer that makes this very good for note taking. The other hardware and software improvements appear to be incremental. Of particular note with all Onyx readers is that they run Android, opening up the ecosystem of the Play store and particularly your note-taking app of ch…

I have a Boox Nova 2 and can mostly recommend it. It's true that Onyx violates the GPL and has some privacy concerns around it, but on the upside the bootloader is unlocked by default and you can root the system fairly easily, allowing you to install a firewall restricting some of the phoning home ( https://blog.tho.ms/hacks/2021/03/27/hacking-onyx-boox-note-... ). I'm beginning to use it as a general purpose Android…

not adding a warm light

Yes that looks like a strange choice. In videos it looks like that distorts the colors, shifting toward blue. It looks like battery is reasonable on all the Onyx devices if you're not on wifi though, despite the overhead of Android. Probably some heavy throttling if background app activity too. Otherwise, backlights on Kindle ereaders still allow for very long battery life-- how does the Nova 2 fare? A week of battery would still be pretty great for a tablet note taking tablet w/ Android if it can manage that with occasional wifi use to sync notes or check email.

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#63

Post by nebula8804 »

empalms wrote: post #20

Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable. I’m curious if there are other techniques to implement reflective(?) displays being explored that wouldn’t fall within the scope of E Ink’s defensible moat, or, if their parents are simply so broad as to stifle most hopes of accessible solutions and broader consumer/professional adoption. Frankly, I’m quite sick of straining my eyes and circadi…

Have you seen Dasung's Paperlike 253 monitor?

[1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aUizYZNbAE

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#64

Post by Tagbert »

black_puppydog wrote: post #53
mmastrac wrote: post #47

E-ink is the coolest tech with the worst business practices. The availability of affordable e-ink tech is just not there. I understand the research-intensive nature of these displays, but the company itself has been holding back the e-ink market by just operating poorly in so many ways. My biggest worry is that they'll fold at some point, leaving all the e-ink patents in the hand of a troll that will hold tech back f…

Well, some of these patents should already be reaching their half-life at least. :) But yeah, it was a sad day for me when I learned why e-ink isn't ubiquitous.

The first generation of patents has already expired. The company has been issued additional patents for techniques that went into the more recent versions.

It means that someone probably could make screens now, but they would be lower resolution, slower refresh and have less contrast than your typical Kindle. Probably good for some uses but probably not enough of a volume to bring prices down.

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#65

Post by jMyles »

slater wrote: post #33
jMyles wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...or if they can simply be produced in a jurisdiction which does not recognize this patent?

...and then NOT sold in jurisdictions where the patent is recognized.

This does not seem like a difficult problem to solve, compared to the actual engineering, production, and scaling challenges.

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#66

Post by ineedasername »

black_puppydog wrote: post #53
mmastrac wrote: post #47

E-ink is the coolest tech with the worst business practices. The availability of affordable e-ink tech is just not there. I understand the research-intensive nature of these displays, but the company itself has been holding back the e-ink market by just operating poorly in so many ways. My biggest worry is that they'll fold at some point, leaving all the e-ink patents in the hand of a troll that will hold tech back f…

Well, some of these patents should already be reaching their half-life at least. :) But yeah, it was a sad day for me when I learned why e-ink isn't ubiquitous.

Is it just excessive licensing fees, or other business practices?

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#67

Post by cogman10 »

zouhair wrote: post #59
black_puppydog wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, some of these patents should already be reaching their half-life at least. :) But yeah, it was a sad day for me when I learned why e-ink isn't ubiquitous.

> why e-ink isn't ubiquitous. Do you have any source?

Here's a throwaway on HN explaining the problem. [1]

Here's an example of E-Ink defending their patents [2]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143779

[2] https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20171220005895/en/E-I...

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#68

Post by ineedasername »

empalms wrote: post #20

Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable. I’m curious if there are other techniques to implement reflective(?) displays being explored that wouldn’t fall within the scope of E Ink’s defensible moat, or, if their parents are simply so broad as to stifle most hopes of accessible solutions and broader consumer/professional adoption. Frankly, I’m quite sick of straining my eyes and circadi…

To paraphrase Planck: technology advances with the funeral of each patent.

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#69

Post by hutzlibu »

nicoburns wrote: post #39
empalms wrote: post #20

Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable. I’m curious if there are other techniques to implement reflective(?) displays being explored that wouldn’t fall within the scope of E Ink’s defensible moat, or, if their parents are simply so broad as to stifle most hopes of accessible solutions and broader consumer/professional adoption. Frankly, I’m quite sick of straining my eyes and circadi…

Qualcomm are sitting on a reflective display technology "mirasol" that: 1. Doesn't hit E-ink's patents 2. Is colour 3. Has fast lcd-like refresh rates The reviews of the few devices that were made were excellent. The main problem seemed to be the quality of other aspects of the devices that featured them. I find it incredibly frustrating that this hasn't made it into the mainstream.

From wikipedia:

"As of 2015, the IMOD Mirasol display laboratory in Longtan, Taiwan, formerly run by Qualcomm, is now apparently run by Apple."

So even if something comes out of it - it would be probably just locked into apples garden.

Re: How E Ink developed full-color e-paper

#70

Post by jagger27 »

chrismorgan wrote: post #60
jagger27 wrote: post #29

For most reading and writing tasks I think I’d rather have a a monochrome display with much higher DPI with extremely crisp high contrast edges. I hope that keeps improving too. Colour is something I’m willing to go without for this type of device. Maybe a single highlight colour would be nice to have as long as the red or yellow pigment occupies the same cell as black, not an adjacent one. A 600 dpi A4 sized tablet…

600dpi A4 means roughly 5000×7000 (35,000,000 pixels). Even 300dpi is 2500×3500 (8,750,000 pixels). The current typical resolution for 10–13″ tablets (A4 is about 14.3″) is 1404×1872, which is 2,628,288 pixels. You’re asking for 13× as many pixels, and 3× as an entry level. However you arrange it, it’s going to use a lot more power and probably need more memory and a more powerful CPU/GPU.

Your math is correct, but the refresh rates are so low that I don’t see it being an issue. Not to mention that by the time said panel is available on the market CPUs and GPUs will be better.

Call it 400 dpi? 450, maybe? It doesn’t seem too farfetched to me.

Also, there's a huge difference in bandwidth requirements if the display is monochrome. Consider the framebuffer needed for a conventional 8-bit colour depth display at 5000 by 7000 versus a monochrome, two colour, or a grayscale 16 shade e-ink panel.

  24 bit RGB: 105 MB
  5 bit grayscale: 21.875 MB
  2 bit: 8.75 MB
  mono: 4.375 MB
Pair that with a low refresh rate and partial screen updates and it's suddenly not so crazy.
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