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Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

cen.acs.org

71–80 of 120 posts

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#71
It’s largely 80/20 right - 80% of emissions come from a small group of sources. That’s hopeful, in some way, since it opens the door to big wins if we tackle those large sources first.

I wrote up a summary of the big picture emissions here last year: https://climate.davis-hansson.com/p/big-picture-2020/

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#72
post #19
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While nuclear has different pollution than fossil fuels, one can hardly call it green with the everlasting poison it produces.

Green is an unhelpful umbrella term IMO. We need to be specific. Even "low carbon" is vague and prone to abuse.

Absolutely. But it is also helpful to for example subsidize low carbon energy, rather than solar and hydro specifically, because it allows for innovations outside of those specific options.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#73
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could avoid this number by investing in soil preservation, nitrogen fixing plants, reduce meat consumption, even in concepts like humanure.

None of these would produce as much food per area and time. Reducing total calories required by eating less meat is a different argument.

Didn't said that we can substitute industrial ammonia but it could definitely reduce it's use. Changing the way we eat it's definitely an opportunity to reduce major sources of c02 emissions.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#74
post #70
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least the poison is very concentrated and easy to store. CO2 in the atmosphere is "forever" too, and much harder to deal with.

Not really, the most abundant life forms on earth consume CO2 to grow. Of course not at the rate we would like (especially with current coverage and that we’re still freeing more carbon daily by chopping down more forests).

They don't consume it, they store it temporarily.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#75
post #59
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With very-high-temperature reactors (one of potential paths for Generation IV reactors) you can produce hydrogen using reactor heat directly, bypassing the electricity conversion step, thus significantly improving efficiency of the process. And with sufficiently cheap hydrogen you would not be able to produce fertilizers, but also steel, another dominant CO2 source.

Oh I absolutely agree that nuclear is a brilliant choice for hydrogen production. And presumably it would allow nuclear to adjust electricity output whilst maintaining high utilisation and profitability. But still I think there is a mistake in assuming that everything needs to be tightly coupled. The benefit of an electricity grid and storable fuels is that you have flexibility.

How is nuclear a brilliant choice for hydrogen production? Hydrogen provides inherent storage, so energy sources will (aside from cost of electrolysers) be competing based on levelized cost -- and levelized cost of new nuclear sucks. High temperature electrolysis doesn't change this: it reduces the electrical power needed by maybe 25%, at the cost of a nuclear reactor that has to operate at 1000 C with all the material problems that implies (there's a reason LWRs won and HTGC reactors did not.)

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#76
post #69
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is then hydrogen liquefied? I remember reading somewhere that hydrogen requires pretty heavy/thick containers for storage. Does it need to be kept at low temperatures?

The Haber-Bosch process used in ammonia production is done at high temperatures (400-500 °C), so you can use "hot" hydrogen to power it (i.e. to heat input nitrogen) and maybe even extract some of leftover energy in produced ammonia heat to generate electricity. Same with steel production, you don't need to cool hydrogen before using it, on the contrary, high temperatures are useful in such cases. Using "hot" hydroge…

HB consumes energy in its compressors, but releases that energy as heat on the catalyst. Hot hydrogen doesn't compress well, so you'd cool it beforehand.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#77

This is very interesting from an agricultural perspective. According to the Wikipedia article for ammonia, “In the US as of 2019, approximately 88% of ammonia was used as fertilizers”. To me this is a very interesting and damning fact with regards to current dominant agricultural practices. Yet another reason that it would be beneficial to further redevelop closed loop nutrient systems. For instance, sewage solids fr…

The energy use of agriculture is overstated. It's a rather minor part of the energy consumption of society overall. In the US we use more energy cooking food than we do growing it (which is about 1% of total energy use). (Note: this ignores the direct use of sunlight falling on fields growing crops.)

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#78

Why is depopulation not even a consideration as a solution for climate change? Surely there are ethical ways to implement it. Or do the world's largest and wealthiest nations only care for their hold on economic power?

There are some very nazi problems with the whole approach.

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#79
post #9

The article points out that ammonia generates far more emissions than any other single chemical compound [1] but it is still a fraction of cement [2]. [1]: https://cen.acs.org/content/dam/cen/97/24/WEB/09724-industri... [2]: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02612-5

While roughly 3/4 of total emissions come from generating energy (electricity, heating, moving things).

https://www.wri.org/data/world-greenhouse-gas-emissions-2018

Re: Industrial ammonia emits more CO2 than other chemical-making reactions (2019)

#80

Yes, this is the case due to the enormous scale of production. Replacing the hydrogen source at similar scales with electrolysis is plausible with base load power generation. The cost increase is a small integer factor, and in the bigger scheme of things is likely something we can adapt to at least for agriculture. An obvious challenge is that we don't have available green base load power -- nuclear, hydro, or geothe…

I for one am all for building green energy infrastructure at scale. However, at this point, I believe the push for green energy at the expense of nuclear, and even hydro projects at this point, has retarded the reduction of green house gases. It's a bit ironic that those wholly supporting wind/solar, have at the same time forced increased bureaucracy, and cost in other base load energy sources that could have helped in an overall reduction of emissions. So by fighting against climate change, they may have indeed made it worse.
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