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How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

erichgrunewald.com

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Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#91

Post by bjelkeman-again »

lawn wrote: post #83
chillacy wrote: post #12

> One week or so ago I switched from Colemak to typing on QWYRFM due to the reduced load it places on the pinkies. I typed Dvorak for 10 years before I started getting RSI again in my right ulna. It turns out that the 'S' key being hit by the pinky in Dvorak caused me a lot of pain. I ended up switching to BEAKL, a pretty obscure layout which is specifically made to alleviate stress on the pinky. It moves the relativ…

I used BEAKL as well for a few months but in combination with a 5-column split keyboard (so you don't press enter, shift etc with your pinky) there was too little for my pinky to do (which caused other fingers to do more than needed). Of others have similar issues I would recommend you to look at a split keyboard first (but switching layout is great too).

What is a good Mac-layout split keyboard with USB?

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#92

Post by RealStickman_ »

rgoulter wrote: post #65
amelius wrote: post #33

Tbh, typing speed doesn't matter much to me: I still need to think, which usually takes much more time than converting those thoughts into keystrokes.

One place where typing speed does impact other people is synchronous messaging, like Slack. If you're asking someone for help, you're requesting their attention. It's better if you can type with sufficient speed to give plenty of information/context as to what you're talking about.

If you ask somebody for help and haven't included all relevant facts in the first message you've already done something wrong.

https://nohello.net/

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#93

Post by IshKebab »

scoofy wrote: post #9

I switched to Dvorak in my 20's. I don't think i got faster, but my right-hand wrist which would irritate me and was one reason for the switch, definitely was more comfortable after, and hasn't given me any problems since. That said, switching was a huge pain in the ass.... like horrible for the first two months, and i promised myself i'd keep typing in both. However, i eventually lost the ability to type in qwerty,…

I tried it too and lost qwerty skills. That and the shortcuts are the main reason I gave up. I work with other people and was surprised by how often I type on other people's keyboards. A nightmare if you mainly use Dvorak.

My initial motivation was also wrist pain. Dvorak helped a bit. I also tried crazy split vertical keyboards which didn't help at all.

What fixed it in the end was a bigger desk and a good chair (I have a HM Mirra 2 now; worth the extortionate price). You need your keyboard far enough onto the desk that you can properly rest your forearm on it.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#95

Post by lytefm »

kaba0 wrote: post #89
assbuttbuttass wrote: post #4

I used to type using the Dvorak layout when I was in high school. I gradually lost the ability to type in QWERTY at all. When I took the GRE I learned it would have to be in QWERTY, so I just switched back. I used QWERTY ever since.

I also tried to convert to an alternative layout, but then realized that on phones, qwerty is pretty objectively a good thing (due to large travels that help greatly there with accuracy). So I dissed the idea.

At least for me, phone muscle memory and keyboard muscle memory are two completely different things.

I've fully switched to the Neo2 Layout about 10 years ago and can't touch type on QWERTZ at all. But on my phone, using QWERT, I know where the letters are without thinking.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#96

Post by irthomasthomas »

chillacy wrote: post #12

> One week or so ago I switched from Colemak to typing on QWYRFM due to the reduced load it places on the pinkies. I typed Dvorak for 10 years before I started getting RSI again in my right ulna. It turns out that the 'S' key being hit by the pinky in Dvorak caused me a lot of pain. I ended up switching to BEAKL, a pretty obscure layout which is specifically made to alleviate stress on the pinky. It moves the relativ…

Interesting. I use Dvorak too and find it much easier than qwerty. But I have been wondering about that right pinky. I broke mine when I was much younger (skulls are harder than knuckles, kids). I guess I will try your BEAKL suggestion.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#97

Post by irthomasthomas »

jacobmischka wrote: post #86
Zircom wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've never trained or practiced my typing, but I've always naturally typed using only my thumb, pointer and middle finger, no pinky or ring fingers at all, but still manage to hit 80-100WPM without them on QWERTY. Good instincts I guess.

This sounds wild and frankly I don't believe you.

There was some research that showed people who typed with fewer fingers could be just as fast. However, I am surprised that anyone could achieve 100wpm with no training.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#98

Post by lokedhs »

kleiba wrote: post #87

I've been typing on QWERTY for over 40 years now, and have been an extensive Emacs user for decades, and luckily never had an issue with RSI. So, I wonder to what extent genetics play a role? What is the percentage of (heavy) QWERTY users that run into RSI issues at some point in their lives?

In in your position as well, and I'm not thinking that perhaps the RSI issues are more common for me peoples who use "correct" hand placement. I find Emacs to be very difficult to use with the proper hand placement, so perhaps it teaches users a different way to type.

I rarely use the pinkys to type, and have my hands shifted compared to the standard position (my index fingers are on f and h).

What this means is that I'm not always using the same fingers to type the same letters, allowing me to distribute the stress on my fingers. Of course, I end up up moving my hands more, but I don't see that as a problem.

I don't look at the keyboard while typing. I have no problems with typing entire sentences without looking down, and I type reasonably fast.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#99

Post by formerly_proven »

bsder wrote: post #55
ericbarrett wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine used his pinky and ring finger to open the door of his pickup truck. But it was frozen shut and he snapped the tendons (ligaments?) and that was that, he couldn't curl them shut on his hand anymore.

What? Did he not go to the doctor? That's a fairly straightforward surgery to repair even though the recovery and therapy sucks. It's way easier to repair a "snap" than a "slice". However, you do have to get to the surgeon before 14 days are up because everything starts shrinking immediately . If you don't, then they have to graft a piece of vestigial tendon from your arm (apparently about 85% of people have it) to m…

I really like it when they put spare parts directly into the product.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#100

Post by hackshack »

xhevahir wrote: post #36
scoofy wrote: post #9

I switched to Dvorak in my 20's. I don't think i got faster, but my right-hand wrist which would irritate me and was one reason for the switch, definitely was more comfortable after, and hasn't given me any problems since. That said, switching was a huge pain in the ass.... like horrible for the first two months, and i promised myself i'd keep typing in both. However, i eventually lost the ability to type in qwerty,…

I switched after developing hand injuries at work (in a job that didn't involve computer use). Since then, whenever I've had to use QWERTY for whatever purpose I've started getting pain in my tendons after a few hours which goes away almost as soon as I'm able to switch back to Dvorak. Like you, though, I found that picking up Dvorak was a total pain in the ass. A while ago I saw a YouTube video in which a guy was te…

Data point. Old fart who switched to Dvorak eons ago, at age 16. It felt natural after 1 week, and felt more efficient than the ‘qwert sometime between weeks 2 and 3. I suspect young age greatly affects take-up speed. Good on ya for taking care of yourself, and switching when you did.

Incidentally, at age 26, I used the “left-handed” Dvorak layout for 2 weeks while my right wrist and hand healed from a dirtbike crash. I was only becoming proficient at the 2 week mark.

The Dvorak left- and right-hand layouts are not as widely known, and look nothing like the standard two-hand layout… but are incredibly optimized. Even the number row is remapped to accommodate letters. Once I started to grok its efficiency, it felt like 10-key’ing entire words at a time. Might be interesting on modern phones.

I experience the same thing with QWERTY and tendons in wrist & forearm. I have to slow down - a lot - and take breaks. I just remap teh kbd if > 15 minutes. iOS kbd keeps my brain familiar with QWERTY; no first-party Dvorak and I don’t expect Apple to ever include one.

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