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How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

erichgrunewald.com

81–90 of 148 posts

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#81
So, scientists didn't confirmed qwerty or things like that directly cause RSI/CTx...

But lets keep discussing that ! Let's circle from qwerty to dvorak and back again, with some minor route twiks to more exotic layouts...

Pleas stop...

R. is the problem ! 'R' like in 'repeat'. Programmer or pianist or pro-gamer or violinist or baker or whatever !

It's self abuse - Stellman wrote big parts of Emacs, gcc, some OS, other things while using mail and lists. jzw wrote Netscape, screensavers and other things. Other examples ?

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#82
post #72
post #66

The bigger problem is not the layout it’s the keyboard itself, if you have rsi switching to an ergodox can improve the situation, if this is not enough something like a dactyl manuform or a kinesis advantage 360 should do the trick. This combined with light switches like tactile (MX brown) or linear (red) will reduce your pain immensely.

I wonder if anyone has studied the effects of different weights of switches. Personally I've always liked the lighter ones. The heavier ones felt uncomfortable and tiring. But I see people in the mechanical keyboard community praise the heavier switches, so I've always assumed that my hands are just weak. The worst ones I used were ones that I got because the MK community doesn't consider browns to be able to be in t…

Well I like heavier switches because they allow me to fully rest my (rather large and strong) fingers on the keys. I'm actually typing this on 78g Zealio V2s, my favorite switch. I definitely don't bottom out the keys with a ton of force, and maybe like half the time don't bottom them out at all. By comparison, I bottom out on the iPad Magic Keyboard every time and with much more force, I would guess because there isn't as much tension pushing back on my fingers and there is less distance between the actuation and the bottom out to slow my fingers down.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#83

> One week or so ago I switched from Colemak to typing on QWYRFM due to the reduced load it places on the pinkies. I typed Dvorak for 10 years before I started getting RSI again in my right ulna. It turns out that the 'S' key being hit by the pinky in Dvorak caused me a lot of pain. I ended up switching to BEAKL, a pretty obscure layout which is specifically made to alleviate stress on the pinky. It moves the relativ…

I used BEAKL as well for a few months but in combination with a 5-column split keyboard (so you don't press enter, shift etc with your pinky) there was too little for my pinky to do (which caused other fingers to do more than needed).

Of others have similar issues I would recommend you to look at a split keyboard first (but switching layout is great too).

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#84
post #66

The bigger problem is not the layout it’s the keyboard itself, if you have rsi switching to an ergodox can improve the situation, if this is not enough something like a dactyl manuform or a kinesis advantage 360 should do the trick. This combined with light switches like tactile (MX brown) or linear (red) will reduce your pain immensely.

The thumb cluster of Ergodox is really shitty for people without large hands though, and the Moonlander isn't much better.

Plenty of alternatives though.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#86
post #15

> One week or so ago I switched from Colemak to typing on QWYRFM due to the reduced load it places on the pinkies. I typed Dvorak for 10 years before I started getting RSI again in my right ulna. It turns out that the 'S' key being hit by the pinky in Dvorak caused me a lot of pain. I ended up switching to BEAKL, a pretty obscure layout which is specifically made to alleviate stress on the pinky. It moves the relativ…

Interesting. I've never trained or practiced my typing, but I've always naturally typed using only my thumb, pointer and middle finger, no pinky or ring fingers at all, but still manage to hit 80-100WPM without them on QWERTY. Good instincts I guess.

This sounds wild and frankly I don't believe you.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#87
I've been typing on QWERTY for over 40 years now, and have been an extensive Emacs user for decades, and luckily never had an issue with RSI. So, I wonder to what extent genetics play a role? What is the percentage of (heavy) QWERTY users that run into RSI issues at some point in their lives?

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#88
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am the author and i didn't mean to be wishy-washy about it. i read several of the papers involved and think it's more likely than not that qwerty was designed for fast typing, or at least not designed to type slowly. but i wouldn't say it's a done deal -- the paper i cited gives the most convincing argument, imo, but it didn't move me up to 100% confidence or anything. i didn't want to give the appearance of being…

Ah, my mistake I'm sorry. Thank you for clarifying your thoughts.

no need to apologise :)

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#89

I used to type using the Dvorak layout when I was in high school. I gradually lost the ability to type in QWERTY at all. When I took the GRE I learned it would have to be in QWERTY, so I just switched back. I used QWERTY ever since.

I also tried to convert to an alternative layout, but then realized that on phones, qwerty is pretty objectively a good thing (due to large travels that help greatly there with accuracy). So I dissed the idea.

Re: How bad is QWERTY, really? A review of the literature, such as it is

#90
post #16

> In other words, the idea is that QWERTY was designed so that humans would type as slowly as possible in order to prevent mechanical jamming. Nope. That's an oft cited story but it's not true. The point of QWERTY was actually to increase typing speed. The debunking of this is pretty well documented these days (there even a note on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#Properties ) so it's disappointing an…

The point of the QWERTY layout was to prevent jamming; the prototype layout was roughly alphabetical on the keyboard and jammed constantly, so it was refined to fix that mechanical problem. The part that is a myth was that they prevented jamming by “slowing typists down”. What they did is moved commonly adjacently pressed letters apart from each-other so they wouldn’t be pressed at about the same time. This was not d…

> The part that is a myth was that they prevented jamming by “slowing typists down”. What they did is moved commonly adjacently pressed letters apart from each-other so they wouldn’t be pressed at about the same time. This was not done explicitly to speed or slow typists (at the time, there was no established typing technique and there were no expert typists), except insofar as a constantly jammed keyboard was extremely slow.

Indeed, which was designed to speed typing up, hence my point. :)

> The true part of the common QWERTY criticism is that the layout of the keys was not decided primarily based on the positions on the keyboard or human hand anatomy. As a result, the keyboard layout per se (both the positioning of the physical keys themselves and the choice of association between letters and keys) is not especially efficient or ergonomic.

I get that but it doesn't take away from my point that the RSI complaint is hugely specific to the individual. Or to put it another way, if QWERTY were really as bad as the stories posted on HN make out then you'd see more cases of RSI given it is used by literally hundreds of millions of people every day.

I'm in my 40s and have been using QWERTY since the 70s without any side effects (I did start getting RSI in the arm from playing FPS every waking moment back when PC 3D FPS were new, but never from typing).

> A related (milder) criticism can be leveled at the Dvorak layout, which was designed for the typewriter technology of ~1930, where the home row and top row of the keyboard were easy to press but the bottom row was much slower and less convenient, based on the consistent steep step between rows of keys. Computer keyboards have always had a different physical shape compared to 1930s typewriters, so the relative difficulty of typing different key combinations is different, and an optimized layout therefore looks different.

Which again also misses my point that RSI depends on vastly more than just your keyboard layout.

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