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On Leaving Facebook

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Re: On Leaving Facebook

#351

Post by alexeiz »

andrew_ wrote: post #26

I just do not understand why somebody with 20 years of experience would invest that kind of time in leetcode. just say "no" and be done with the BS, and with the kind of financial success the author has enjoyed previously, wait for the right company to come along that doesn't require it. That's the only way the industry is going to fix itself; enough people start saying no.

Several years ago, I've seen an opening where a company was looking for someone to "lead their engineering effort". When I applied, they asked me to pass a hackerrank test. I said, thanks, but no thanks. It's obvious that such mismatch of the role description and the methods of finding the right candidate can only mean they are either incompetent or lying. None of that says anything good about that company.

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#352

Post by jokethrowaway »

a10c wrote: post #287
lolinder wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The large companies don't need tens of thousands of system architects. They need tens of thousands of coders who can do what they're told on small parts of a system without fussing too much about the bigger picture. I think that's what OP is referring to—leetcode filters for young developers who don't need to understand all the reasons why they're doing what they're doing.

Why would a well rounded senior developer be interviewing for a role that requires a code monkey?

Why would you put out ads for senior engineers when you'll make them perform code monkey tasks?

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#353

Post by [deleted] »

fallmonkey wrote: post #94

"A common question I get is about work/life balance. And I view it a little different too now. At Facebook I could get by barely working a few hours a day. But the job was so unsatisfying that it spilled the frustration in the “life” part" This is the golden piece for me. I too recently left a big corp to a smaller place, expecting to sacrifice WLB and my free time - yet I ended up feeling happier and spending less t…

[deleted]

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#354

Post by jokethrowaway »

Swizec wrote: post #211
ipnon wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the distinction to be made is between the process of finding the best out of 7,000 and finding someone sufficient out 7,000. The first is surely extremely expensive for companies. The second can be done in a week or two. I think the anecdotal evidence shows though that no company can accurately do the first, and the gamification of this process is a deeply researched topic, so it's likely that a company that…

> Coding is hard, but so is marketing, accounting, management ... But are your marketing candidates being put through the ringer too? I suspect software engineers are being uniquely hazed. My girlfriend works on the business strategy side of Fortune500’s. Our interviews look like a joke compared to theirs.

My developer friend stopped working as an engineer because he found out he can pass those interviews with no preparation and the job takes way less effort compared to software.

He's now doing two jobs at the same time and the companies don't notice he's barely doing anything but appearing in meetings.

YMMV

Big corporations are incredibly wasteful, so I'm not surprised.

I also know plenty of developers who do little at work, but at least they need to produce a substantial amount of code, at the end of the day.

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#355

Post by Hermitian909 »

vanusa wrote: post #315
Hermitian909 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More like you gradually come to a realization that your time in this world is extremely, extremely precious. > And that you just don't particularly see a need to cater to other people's made up (and sometimes downright farcical) rituals to such an excessive degree. > No matter how much money they may dangle in front of you. I confess to not understanding this take, money can purchase back a substantial portion of t…

I'd say it's a combination of factors, based on: (1) Most chiefly, the egregiously unethical behavior of nearly all of the "big" players (the rest being merely moderately unethical) (2) Reports from close friends of the day-to-day grind at these places (literally none have anything more than superficially positive to say about it; some have suffered significant health problems, include one full-scale nervous breakdow…

> they just aren't as immediately obvious to find as FAANG

Sounds like you'd need to spend some time to find these :)

To your other points, I get feeling revulsion to Google or Facebook, but I feel there are other companies like Netflix or Stripe that are ethically fine. The idea that the employees are generally overworked doesn't mesh with my lived experience the bay area, I have a fairly wide social circle and I don't know anyone putting in more than 40 hours a week at a big tech company unless they're trying to climb the ladder super fast. I think we also may have to agree to disagree on whether all leetcode is intellectually dishonest. 4 leetcode hard problems is a silly way to interview, but when working on problems at scale I appreciate a gut check problem on big O and an algorithmic workhorse like depth-first search or something.

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#356

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

deckard1 wrote: post #344
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thought crossed my mind, that they are doing it on purpose: to make the whole experience of switching jobs as unpleasant and traumatic as possible, so that people will stick to their jobs. However a conspiracy is highly unlikely, given that there are so many players involved. More realistic explanation: they try to make an 'American Idol' like process, this gives them the feeling of having chosen 'the best'. Now…

> make the whole experience of switching jobs as unpleasant and traumatic as possible, so that people will stick to their jobs. However a conspiracy is highly unlikely I've thought this too. Apple, Google, Intel, Adobe, Intuit, Pixar, and Lucasfilm were hit with antitrust litigation starting around 2010 because they were all involved in colluding to reduce the ability of devs to switch jobs. Since then we've only see…

>were hit with antitrust litigation starting around 2010 because they were all involved in colluding to reduce the ability of devs to switch jobs

I didn't know that, really interesting detail.

>no one wants to admit they don't know what they are doing.

Interesting perspective, though I don't know about the vodoo part. They seem to be taking the matter quite seriously, at least google does. Take the matter of competitive programming: Peter Norvig says they were checking, if taking part in programming contests would correlate with good performance at the job [1]; I think having read somewhere that Norvig revised his negative judgement later on, as they had examined more data [2]. (actually that would mean that they didn't act on the data to begin with, well well).

These companies are good at data processing, any data that is, at least they seem to be taking it dead seriously (disclaimer: I never worked at google, though I have managed to fail at interviewing there, however i am not sure if i would have accepted an offer ;-)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdmyUZCl75s

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_programming#Benefi...

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#357

Post by deckard1 »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #108
zionic wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Newish dev doing my first attempt at a FAANG interview. My thoughts? Screw ‘em. They aren’t worth your skill set. I’m not joking, fuck these people. The paycheck they give you won’t make you happy, what will however is not working for these scumbags.

I know a bunch of highly skilled people who would never have trouble finding work at other companies who say they love working at Facebook. I also know a lot of people who use it and think it's a great tool for keeping in touch and communicating with friends and family and the social, hobby, interest and volunteer groups they're in. I don't personally like the company or Zuck or some of the things it does very much,…

> I don't personally like the company or Zuck or some of the things it does very much, but they aren't the devil.

What about Rupert Murdoch and Fox News? Anti-vaxxers are why we are still in this mess. Yet I constantly see Covid misinformation on Facebook. We could discuss the genocide in Myanmar, Cambridge Analytica, Facebook's psyops campaign against their users, etc.

Maybe Zuck isn't the devil. But he sure as hell is irresponsible at being the CEO of Facebook. If you can't tame the scale of your operation then you shouldn't be that size to begin with. The collateral damage is too significant.

> pure as the driven snow

There are degrees. There are literally thousands of places that are not Fox News, Exxon, Nestle, or Facebook. Especially in the tech world. You can't toss your resume out on the street in Silicon Valley without it landing in the lap of a recruiter. I'd start with "didn't contribute to genocide" or "didn't think a psyops campaign on our users was okay" is a good place to start. I've certainly never worked at such a place.

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#358

Post by amelius »

seemaze wrote: post #136
Aperocky wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At Facebook I could get by barely working a few hours a day. But the job was so unsatisfying This is a little too first world. if the work were too sparse and wants more work, why not join interview loops or take classes/training, attend talks? Does Meta not have those options? The frustration feels almost artificial, if one does not want to get more work, then maybe just go boating or mountain biking. Watch some s…

Or contribute to your favorite flavor of open source!

I imagine React was created by Facebook slackers.

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#359

Post by throwawaylinux »

deckard1 wrote: post #357
throwawaylinux wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a bunch of highly skilled people who would never have trouble finding work at other companies who say they love working at Facebook. I also know a lot of people who use it and think it's a great tool for keeping in touch and communicating with friends and family and the social, hobby, interest and volunteer groups they're in. I don't personally like the company or Zuck or some of the things it does very much,…

> I don't personally like the company or Zuck or some of the things it does very much, but they aren't the devil. What about Rupert Murdoch and Fox News? Anti-vaxxers are why we are still in this mess. Yet I constantly see Covid misinformation on Facebook. We could discuss the genocide in Myanmar, Cambridge Analytica, Facebook's psyops campaign against their users, etc. Maybe Zuck isn't the devil. But he sure as hell…

> What about Rupert Murdoch and Fox News?

I don't think he's the devil either. I do know the nature of their game though. It's to divide people. They're doing a great job of it.

> Anti-vaxxers are why we are still in this mess. Yet I constantly see Covid misinformation on Facebook. We could discuss the genocide in Myanmar, Cambridge Analytica, Facebook's psyops campaign against their users, etc.

Re: On Leaving Facebook

#360

Post by bschne »

fallmonkey wrote: post #94

"A common question I get is about work/life balance. And I view it a little different too now. At Facebook I could get by barely working a few hours a day. But the job was so unsatisfying that it spilled the frustration in the “life” part" This is the golden piece for me. I too recently left a big corp to a smaller place, expecting to sacrifice WLB and my free time - yet I ended up feeling happier and spending less t…

I once had a job where I somehow didn't get assigned much work for a long period of time right after starting — something about no projects having open staff positions, and them not being able to use me anyway because they were using up all the budget with the existing staffing already and didn't want to do "free work" for the clients.

For a while, I spent my days mostly doing tutorials, reading ebooks and papers, watching lectures, ...

Don't get me wrong, it's an incredible luxury to get a consistent salary and be able to do that! But the thing is, you can't help but feel utterly useless after a while. It's especially bad if everyone else has their projects, so you also don't really feel like part of a team.

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