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Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

jasonstanford.substack.com

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Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#251

Post by alistairSH »

ashtonkem wrote: post #192
mwhitfield wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that was the expectation, not sure where you read that into it. The two examples he gave were for the bar in the lobby and a total bill that would be mainly food. This is presumably a Drafthouse or one of the similar places that have full waiter service at your seat.

Part of the issue with tipping culture is that there's a grey area between the "obviously tipped" and "obviously not tipped" roles. This grey area creates space for companies to pay tipped wages, but customers to also not tip because they didn't think about it.

In most states (not sure if it's a federal law), tip-earners are guaranteed to be "topped up" or "made whole" if their tips don't bring them to the normal minimum wage.

That minimum is still too low to be livable in many areas, Texas included, but that's a separate, albeit related, problem.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#252

Post by danaris »

bradleyjg wrote: post #88
burkaman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is belittling, and almost nobody except restaurant owners likes it. It's sort of a game theory problem - if we could coordinate everyone to stop tipping, then restaurants would be forced to pay their workers normal wages, and almost everyone would be better off. But if I stop tipping, I'm just an asshole making no impact on society. I guess the only practical approach is to simultaneously keep tipping and push for…

Restaurant owners do not like it. For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house. Also, it means that waitstaff will side with the customer’s interests over the restaurant’s. Consider for example a round of free drinks at a bar—increases the tip but costs the bar. Restaurant owners that have tried to eliminate tipping find a) customers are uncomfortable and sometimes try to tip anyway…

> customers are uncomfortable and sometimes try to tip anyway

This is almost certainly largely because of another of the incredibly frustrating aspects of tipping: it's entirely informal, with no way to tell what's expected of customers. The etiquette around it can be extremely confusing on both sides, too—I've heard stories of workers who are strictly forbidden from acknowledging tips to customers, so that if you asked, they would have to say "no, you don't need to tip", even though they're still considered tipped workers legally.

So unless there's explicit statements from the establishment of "we do not accept tips for our workers, because we make sure their wages are high enough not to need that", you can't take "you don't need to tip" at face value. Hell, even then you can't; I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see unscrupulous business owners put that even when they do not, in fact, pay their workers well, especially in areas near where other places say it truthfully.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#253

Post by alistairSH »

bnralt wrote: post #212
sokoloff wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone brings popcorn and soda to our table, I expect to/do tip for it.

I don't think I've ever been in a movie theater other than restaurant/theater hybrids (where tables have specific waiters) where this was done. But either way, the author says he was working the bar (which sounds more like a bar/concession stand hybrid), not serving tables.

The Alamo Drafthouse chain of theaters, of which there is at least one in Austin and one in the DC suburbs, has table service. And, if I remember correctly, the bar is set-up like a normal pub bar (and separate from non-alcohol concessions). So, you can order a drink in advance of seating, as you would at a a pub (where you'd normally tip the bartender) and you can order drinks at your seat.

It is a bit strange/confusing that the author didn't clarify, as very few theaters serve alcohol at all. And most that do don't have a stand-alone bar or table service, just beers at the concession counter.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#254

Post by danaris »

jklinger410 wrote: post #190
bradleyjg wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurant owners do not like it. For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house. Also, it means that waitstaff will side with the customer’s interests over the restaurant’s. Consider for example a round of free drinks at a bar—increases the tip but costs the bar. Restaurant owners that have tried to eliminate tipping find a) customers are uncomfortable and sometimes try to tip anyway…

> For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house. ??? Tipping is not a "fixed percentage." You may have a few edge cases here, but I have to push back on the idea that business owners don't like it. They get to pay their front house staff next to nothing, this money consistently goes untaxed, and it gives their employees incentive to work hard. It also gives their front house the capa…

> being a server is the highest paying entry level job in the United States simply because of tipping culture.

...if you get just the right job in just the right area. The exact same job—even at a chain—in two restaurants just a few miles apart could have massively different levels of tips.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#255

Post by lithos »

1121redblackgo wrote: post #63

I wonder why all the comments from this thread exclusively about tips when the article covered much much more than that. Interesting.

Tipping is a semi frequently covered political topic here. Anything from corporate corruption, dumb Americans, any anecdote, and similar easy observations that don’t need you to read the article. Especially when “top comment” is on such an easy/well tread/low effort/acceptable topic, people here are far less likely to read the article.

(Personally I think the “top comment” is almost always worth collapsing. Though looks like you’re top now while I typed this)

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#256

Post by AdrianB1 »

sokoloff wrote: post #154
AdrianB1 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the tipping culture in the West (as opposed to places like Japan, where there is almost no tipping at all) mostly because the tip was initially meant as an exception for service above expectation, not as a regular component of the pricing. From my perspective even regular service deserves no tip, I expect to be charged for the service and tip only for exceeding expectations, but it does not work that way for a…

My first night in Tokyo with a group of friends, we had an amazing multi-hour meal with loads of drinks and generally catching up. We knew we didn't have to, but we tipped generously by American standards. We got chased into the street by two of the waiters and had a large argument with neither side wanting to take the tip money. I assumed tips would be "not expected, but quietly accepted" which turned out to be not…

"We knew we didn't have to, but we did it because we are Americans and we don't care about other cultures". Not a quote, but how many people will read that. I think they are somehow right. In Europe and Asia the American tourists have some bad reputation, for a reason. In Paris (France) we asked some waiters about this and the answers were very strong (I was with some locals, so the waiters were very open to speak up).

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#257

Post by thatfrenchguy »

ajmurmann wrote: post #151
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

I think this Reddit comment from a use called TheMagecite on parenting during the pandemic might get to some of it: "No. So lets take my example I have two children one has autism. What my son desperately needs is social interaction, how do you teach social interaction well without peers? He can't see other children and right now he has such limited exposure to other children he is about to start school and it is a n…

This is where the overprotective nature of American parenting comes to bite you: your kid will be fine playing with other kids outside, why not… do it?

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#258

Post by gunfighthacksaw »

bena wrote: post #117
peteradio wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurants can really barely afford to stay open in my (small) region, frankly they are seen as a service to a town not a net extractor. I know the finances behind my locals and can tell you they would not be able to stay open if workers were not also compensated via tips, and workers would not be there without the requisite pay. Tips end up being the difference between having a restaurant or not.

This is kind of a bullshit excuse. Most restaurants can barely afford to stay open because most restaurants are run by people who have no business running a business. Hell, let's be honest, most businesses are run by people who have no business running a business. Most people don't really want to run a business, they want to do something else, but also get paid to do it. There are plenty of small restaurants around t…

It always blows my mind when business owners complain “oh labour is too expensive, oh I can’t stay in business”

Yes, that’s how capitalism, markets and commerce work. It has good parts and bad parts. If you don’t want the government to get involved when it’s going well, why get them involved when it isn’t? Greed and hypocrisy, that’s why.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#259

Post by l8rpeace »

rvba wrote: post #237
l8rpeace wrote: post #100

Former politician who focused on labor joins the workforce and learns the real truth THEN chastises customers for not tipping in the conclusion of his article? Yes, he talks about the tough conditions of the job and customer behavior and other things, but nothing about how MAYBE legislation should change for wages (hourly service workers relying on tips in the US actually make well below the hourly minimum wage). Sor…

Supposedly he should know the ins and outs of labor law, yet he struggles to provide any applicable analysis how to solve the problems. Obviously low pay is the biggest one, but things like lack of breaks to go to the toilet is something very solevable.

Yes! And how policy can have unintended consequence is HUGE. Why doesn't he really even mention that? It's upsetting that among the many observations that "people, tip more" ends up being the final thought and not "we created a system that affords all of this behavior, " not one that works with known conditions.

Sure, I personally think people should be more generous, but they aren't obliged to be generous, I don't really fault them for not being more generous, and if lack of generosity is a condition of the system, he doesn't really have a good argument for saying "we crafted a system knowing people aren't generous, please be more generous so our system works."

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#260

Post by HWR_14 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #88
burkaman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is belittling, and almost nobody except restaurant owners likes it. It's sort of a game theory problem - if we could coordinate everyone to stop tipping, then restaurants would be forced to pay their workers normal wages, and almost everyone would be better off. But if I stop tipping, I'm just an asshole making no impact on society. I guess the only practical approach is to simultaneously keep tipping and push for…

Restaurant owners do not like it. For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house. Also, it means that waitstaff will side with the customer’s interests over the restaurant’s. Consider for example a round of free drinks at a bar—increases the tip but costs the bar. Restaurant owners that have tried to eliminate tipping find a) customers are uncomfortable and sometimes try to tip anyway…

> Restaurant owners do not like it. For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house.

Reducing fixed period costs (e.g. labor costs of servers, rent, IT hardware) to revenue based splits (e.g. tipping, hotdesks at coworking spaces, the cloud) is an excellent way to minimize risks and most businesses are willing to pay a premium for that.

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