Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now • Hacker News Board

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#221

Post by newsclues » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #88

burkaman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is belittling, and almost nobody except restaurant owners likes it. It's sort of a game theory problem - if we could coordinate everyone to stop tipping, then restaurants would be forced to pay their workers normal wages, and almost everyone would be better off. But if I stop tipping, I'm just an asshole making no impact on society. I guess the only practical approach is to simultaneously keep tipping and push for…

Restaurant owners do not like it. For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house. Also, it means that waitstaff will side with the customer’s interests over the restaurant’s. Consider for example a round of free drinks at a bar—increases the tip but costs the bar. Restaurant owners that have tried to eliminate tipping find a) customers are uncomfortable and sometimes try to tip anyway…

Business owners like the fact that their staff are incentivized to sell as if paying a percentage commission on sales, but the commission is paid by the consumers.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#222

Post by giraffe_lady » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:32 PM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #95

zivkovicp wrote: post #75

Sounds to me like a lot of "customers" in the US are just a55holes and anyone who has to work with them regularly is right to just stop. I'm sure a little common courtesy in everyday interactions is all it takes to make workplaces enjoyable; and a wage that allows you to stay warm and fed while working a _single job_ will get most people back to work. It's really a very low bar to set, I'm surprised this is even such…

When I worked at a call center doing technical support, customers would often get frustrated. But as soon as they crossed the line into unprofessional, I informed them I was hanging up the call, and did. Why would anyone in a service based industry put up with customers throwing tantrums? The manager should immediately march out, give them a refund, and tell them to leave.

When was that? Because like every other low wage job, those conditions have also gotten a lot worse.

These days a very standard contact center policy is that reps can never hang up on a customer under any circumstances. Breaking this is considered one of the big ones, termination-worthy on a first or maybe second offense depending on the employer.

All you can really do is escalate it up to your supervisor. But that depends on them being available for that, and willing to back you up possibly at a personal cost to themselves.

People put up with this because they are precarious workers who need the money badly. This is the sort of life where even if you have another job lined up, the 2-3 weeks between stopping one pay cycle and starting the other can be a huge risk or incur costs. These employers depend on this precarity, because otherwise like you said, why would anyone put up with it?

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#223

Post by acdha » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #191

acdha wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew multiple classmates who were working substantial hours because their families needed the extra income, and that was when wages were better than they are now. Anything close to real work should pay real wages because otherwise you’re screwing the most desperate at the expense of the more affluent kids who can afford to walk away.

> Anything close to real work should pay real wages because otherwise you’re screwing the most desperate at the expense of the more affluent kids who can afford to walk away. That isn't how wages work. If someone can do the same job for less, they will and you will not get paid. You can raise the minimum but then you make everything more expensive (the people who build the tractors get more, the guy driving the tract…

> That isn't how wages work. If someone can do the same job for less, they will and you will not get paid.

Sure, but recognizing that is what happens is important for both not patronizing businesses which give their workers the worst deal allowed by law and support for increasing minimum wages to match inflation.

> You can raise the minimum but then you make everything more expensive (the people who build the tractors get more, the guy driving the tractor gets more, the person picking the lettuce gets paid more, the lady trimming and repackaging the lettuce gets more, the truck driver delivering the lettuce gets more, the high schooler throwing the lettuce on your burger gets more...)

You're leaving out a key part: prices only go up for the fraction of those costs which are due to wages. For things like fast food, that's not a large component which is why, for example, a McDonald's worker in Denmark has a much better quality of life while the average Big Mac buyer is paying the same or less than their American counterpart:

https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index

Another big factor to consider is the cost of poverty. The working poor have less ability to participate in the economy so a certain amount of local economic growth never happens, and they're often worse off because they're forced to do things like buy inefficiently because they don't have the reserves to optimize. Paying people at the level minimum wage used to mean would allow a significant number of people to participate in the economy more effectively and we've never regretted growing the pie.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#224

Post by brodouevencode » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #36

lotsofpulp wrote: post #5

> Places like this rely on high school students for jobs like working the counter and delivering food. This sentence should be amended to “Places like this rely on people to accept low wages and low quality of life at work”. The whole article can basically be cut down to that sentence.

Well, the point is that these jobs don't create that much value. They're only worth so much, and the only skill required to do them is to put up with the misery. If you argue that all jobs must pay a "living wage", then jobs like this will just cease to exist and high-school kids won't be employable.

Low skill jobs are the first to be automated. Theaters, quick service restaurants, a lot of retail are pushing customers to use things like apps (for ordering), delivery, and pickup because it removes the need to employ unskilled ticket-takers while simultaneously removing the need to interact with difficult customers.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#225

Post by AlexandrB » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #179

lotsofpulp wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. Free markets do not preclude social safety nets, or things like universal basic income.

It's all a question of degree. A market with fewer taxes and less redistribution is freer.

This is only true if you're looking at the capital market. If you consider the labor market, I would argue it's freer if employees have more freedom to change jobs (i.e. there is some redistribution and social safety net).

Edit: Also, a market with redistribution is more democratic. More actors have money to provide market input (demand or investment) when resources are not highly concentrated.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#226

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #131

lotsofpulp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State and local laws overrule federal laws if the federal law has a lower minimum.

Technically it is not overruling, it is complementing. No local law can overrule a federal or state law, ever.

Thanks, that is a better characterization.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#227

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

nepeckman wrote: post #87

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

[deleted]

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#228

Post by MattGaiser » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

nepeckman wrote: post #87

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

> I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people.

Is it growing, or is it just unpleasant/impolite to state that a large segment of the population consists of jerks so we keep forgetting?

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#229

Post by alexpetralia » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #85

soco wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand: me as a customer, whether I pay the menu + 20% tip, or I pay a menu 20% more expensive, I end up exactly the same. So why is for the restaurant owner better with tipping, instead of raising the prices 20% and putting an entry sign "no tipping needed here, we pay our workers right"? Even call the restaurant "no tipping place" if they wish. Can someone with experience in restaurant business e…

When did tipping become 20%? The majority of my life it was 15%. Then at a certain point I started hearing 18%. Now it is 20%? Who is behind this?

Software nudges (e.g. Square). This scales social behavior very quickly.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#230

Post by bopbeepboop » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #228

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

> I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. Is it growing, or is it just unpleasant/impolite to state that a large segment of the population consists of jerks so we keep forgetting?

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