Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now • Hacker News Board

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#181

Post by vorpalhex » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #69

seneca wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the point is that these jobs don't create that much value. They're only worth so much, and the only skill required to do them is to put up with the misery. If you argue that all jobs must pay a "living wage", then jobs like this will just cease to exist and high-school kids won't be employable.

> these jobs don't create that much value According to what I read online, apparently eating out is something that is necessary for mental health and the pandemic causing issues with eating out is actually causing issues for people for some godforsaken reason. So probably not as valueless as you might think

Eating out and employing low paid workers don't have to be the same thing.

Significant amounts of that can and will be automated. We are already seeing it happen.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#182

Post by hotpotamus » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #94

nepeckman wrote: post #87

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Indeed. The part about getting your income on an ATM card with mandatory fees no matter what you do seems like the best anecdotal example of how fucked things are for the little guy these days.

Keep in mind that the majority of money these days goes through credit card processors that take a percentage off the top. Not saying they don't provide a service for the money, but it doesn't seem that different.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#183

Post by wbsss4412 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #159

DarylZero wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I naively thought the whole point of the market was to effectively route resources to where they are most in demand and allow innovation from the ground up where it's needed without central planning

This is the difference between analysis of markets as a concept and “believing in the free market” as an ideology.

The latter uses markets as a stand in for morality. When bad outcomes occur, it definitionally cannot be due to the market, but some other bad actors.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#184

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

bnralt wrote: post #172

sokoloff wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On Christmas Day a family bought over $100 worth of tickets and food two days after Christmas. > The tip? $2.00. How else would I read that? If it was $85 in tickets, $10 in served items, and $5 in tax, that’s a 20% tip in my book, but the author (a career politician) would like you to read it as a 2% tip.

He also says it was during "a movie night for kids," and the author thinks people should be paying for normal movie theater stuff, like popcorn: >You want to see Spider Man? You desperately want to bring your kids to Encanto or Sing 2? And you want your popcorn, food, and drinks? Cool. But if you don’t tip... If someone is taking their kids to a movie night, I wouldn't expect them to tip for tickets, popcorn and soda…

If someone brings popcorn and soda to our table, I expect to/do tip for it.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#185

Post by michaelt » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

mynameishere wrote: post #134

CPLX wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The part about getting your income on an ATM card with mandatory fees no matter what you do seems like the best anecdotal example of how fucked things are for the little guy these days.

For many low-wage employees the alternative to this is check cashing fees which is even worse. The issue of why so many people are unbanked is a separate discussion.

This writer isn't unbanked, though - he's a former labor secretary.

He was charged a "fee" to get his pay despite that.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#186

Post by sudosysgen » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #36

lotsofpulp wrote: post #5

> Places like this rely on high school students for jobs like working the counter and delivering food. This sentence should be amended to “Places like this rely on people to accept low wages and low quality of life at work”. The whole article can basically be cut down to that sentence.

Well, the point is that these jobs don't create that much value. They're only worth so much, and the only skill required to do them is to put up with the misery. If you argue that all jobs must pay a "living wage", then jobs like this will just cease to exist and high-school kids won't be employable.

That's just incorrect. Wages do no accurately represent value generated. They are an incredibly noisy signal thereof. Wages are better at representing replaceability.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#187

Post by Simon_says » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

Cd00d wrote: post #175

alistairSH wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...a family bought over $100 worth of tickets and food... I'm not sure how this theater is arranged. My local theater serves beer/wine and some heavy snacks. But, it doesn't have table service. Just the typical counter service. I've never tipped and always assumed the counter staff is earning at least minimum wage (no different than buying a latte at Starbucks). The few times I've gone to a movie theater with table s…

I was a Starbucks barista for a year (2000), and customer tips were an important part of my take home. I think most people think like you, because at the time I calculated my average tip was 5 cents per customer, but that still raise my hourly to something I could almost afford to live on (I think it took me from $6-something to about $9/hr). I wouldn't consider getting a latte and not tipping after that experience.

Wow, I've never even considered tipping at Starbucks.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#188

Post by DarylZero » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #177

ajmurmann wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I naively thought the whole point of the market was to effectively route resources to where they are most in demand and allow innovation from the ground up where it's needed without central planning

Markets in general are quite good at routing resources and innovation. A perfectly free market, or at least free enough that you're arguing we should remove regulators and social safety nets, is worse at all of those things, and only really great at controlling people, which as the point of those you were replying to. Also, markets can't allow innovations from the ground up by themselves, the require a government to…

Sure, but it has to be understood what resource is being allocated: the labor of the dispossessed. If you don't have dispossessed masses obligated to labor, there's nothing to allocate.

Of course people don't have to face literal starvation to be under control, but the system fundamentally requires that the level of deprivation always be enough to meet the requirement of keeping labor under control.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#189

Post by ModernMech » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #85

soco wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand: me as a customer, whether I pay the menu + 20% tip, or I pay a menu 20% more expensive, I end up exactly the same. So why is for the restaurant owner better with tipping, instead of raising the prices 20% and putting an entry sign "no tipping needed here, we pay our workers right"? Even call the restaurant "no tipping place" if they wish. Can someone with experience in restaurant business e…

When did tipping become 20%? The majority of my life it was 15%. Then at a certain point I started hearing 18%. Now it is 20%? Who is behind this?

In my experience:

- Older generations tip maximum 15%, and decide what to tip based on service quality

- Millennials tip a flat 20%, regardless of service quality

- People who worked in the service industry will tip 30%, because they know what it's like.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#190

Post by jklinger410 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #88

burkaman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is belittling, and almost nobody except restaurant owners likes it. It's sort of a game theory problem - if we could coordinate everyone to stop tipping, then restaurants would be forced to pay their workers normal wages, and almost everyone would be better off. But if I stop tipping, I'm just an asshole making no impact on society. I guess the only practical approach is to simultaneously keep tipping and push for…

Restaurant owners do not like it. For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house. Also, it means that waitstaff will side with the customer’s interests over the restaurant’s. Consider for example a round of free drinks at a bar—increases the tip but costs the bar. Restaurant owners that have tried to eliminate tipping find a) customers are uncomfortable and sometimes try to tip anyway…

> For them it means a fixed percentage of revenue has to go to the front of house.

??? Tipping is not a "fixed percentage."

You may have a few edge cases here, but I have to push back on the idea that business owners don't like it. They get to pay their front house staff next to nothing, this money consistently goes untaxed, and it gives their employees incentive to work hard.

It also gives their front house the capability to make an income that the owner themselves would never dream of paying, meaning they can have talented employees just show up magically without having to alter their business in any way.

I have to agree that the people who like it THE MOST are the people also most likely to complain: the servers and bartenders. It only takes some basic math to identify that being a server is the highest paying entry level job in the United States simply because of tipping culture.