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A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

latimes.com

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Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#131

Post by throwaway2016a »

> Should Riad be found guilty, “it’s going to send shivers up and down everybody’s spine who has one of these vehicles and realizes, ‘Hey, I’m the one that’s responsible,’”

Doesn't send shivers up my spine. I know I'm responsible, that's why I keep a constant eye on the road and am prepared to take control at any time.

Though the more recent software is very good at stopping at red lights, I never trusted autopilot anywhere but the highway where Tesla themselves says it should be used. Now that I'm in the "Full Self Driving" beta I trust it on regular roads a bit more but I still 100% understand I need to be watching the road. It augments my driving not replaces it (in its current state).

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#132

Post by lkxijlewlf »

JPKab wrote: post #127
lkxijlewlf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car was a 2016 model. Up until 2019, Tesla still said each car came eq with FSD hardware. https://web.archive.org/web/20190131055138/https://www.tesla... PPL see that and think it's true, that their car can drive itself.

All Teslas are equipped with FSD hardware. The upgrade turns on the FSD software. Hardware or not, you don't have FSD unless you pay for it.

That doesn't stop people from making assumptions.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#133

Post by [deleted] »

formerly_proven wrote: post #61
toomuchtodo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…

Hasn't Tesla already lost a few lawsuits around deceptive marketing of Autopilot and FSD?

[deleted]

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#134

Post by razemio »

srmarm wrote: post #103
razemio wrote: post #52

I think the real problem is the driver monitoring system. Openpilot nailed it with their eye camera monitoring. There is no need to touch the wheel which makes it more relaxing but you can not take your eyes of the road, which is far more important then keeping your hand on the wheel. Both would even be better. Still trying to figure out why this is not mandatory for all lane keeping assistents.

Out of interest where do you put your hands if not on the wheel? There's always going to be latency if you need to take evasive action and your body isn't immediately ready to react.

I would prefer both. Hands on the wheel and eye tracking for level 2-4. Eye tracking is however much more important imo.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#135

Post by razemio »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #97
razemio wrote: post #52

I think the real problem is the driver monitoring system. Openpilot nailed it with their eye camera monitoring. There is no need to touch the wheel which makes it more relaxing but you can not take your eyes of the road, which is far more important then keeping your hand on the wheel. Both would even be better. Still trying to figure out why this is not mandatory for all lane keeping assistents.

> Still trying to figure out why this is not mandatory for all lane keeping assistents. Because automotive industry lobbying has led to driver assistance and "self driving" features largely being self-regulated.

In Germany it is highly (over)regulated, to a point where it isn't usable. Torque on wheel for e.g. is to low even for some wide curves. Still eye tracking isn't mandatory.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#136

Post by JPKab »

rvz wrote: post #42
JPKab wrote: post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

There is not a single mention of FSD in the article; neither did the article ever say that the driver was using it. Did you just prove that you read as far as the headline and not the entire article itself?

Just ask me if I read the article, or state that you don't think I did. I did read it by the way, and my main complaint is with the title being designed to use innuendo to draw clicks. I consider it beneath the dignity of any good publication that claims to be news. The LA Times lost the plot on this a long time ago. As extreme as Larry Elder was (and yes, i think he's extreme and wouldn't vote for him), when they called a man born and raised in Compton "the Black face of White Supremacy" while providing uncritical coverage of his opponent, a wealthy white man born into the Getty fortune, I stopped taking them seriously. I was probably late on the game with that compared to most HN readers. It was embarrassing to see a once-great publication devolve into being completely unaware of the Onion-like absurdity of their headlines.

FYA (just trying to help Dang out here), asking if someone read the article is a violation of the HN rules. I've been guilty of it myself in the past, and Dang corrected me. I try hard to help him out, because he's a good moderator and has a hard job.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#137

Post by bluGill »

jeroenhd wrote: post #87
bluGill wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's marketing is admissible in court as evidence, and probably will carry more weight than any warnings. Marketing is designed to be clear and easy to understand, so courts tend to assume that people understand the marketing intent more than the letter of the legalese warnings. I have no idea what courts will do. It tends to take a lot of cases going opposite ways in slightly different situations before they sett…

You have to put in a conscious effort to stop the car from telling you to hold on to the damn steering wheel. People install mods to their cars to disable these features, but that too requires conscious effort to do. Tesla owners might sue Tesla for not fulfilling their promises, but I don't think they'll get out of the responsibility for autopilot accidents so easily. Unless the court rules that Tesla's cars don't p…

That is admissable in court too. I did not claim to have any insight into how courts will rule. They could decide given the marketing the effort to prove you are in control is obviously a bug. They could decide that the effort to prove you are in control is enough to mean you are in control. Until dozens of these cases have gone to court I won't guess.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#138

Post by boogies »

dividuum wrote: post #93
computerex wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla should be liable for misleading consumers. They released videos demo'ing autopilot and ignoring their own guidelines of always having hands on the wheel. They call their feature "autopilot"/"FSD" and Elon has been personally promising real FSD next year every year for the past 5 years. When people's lives are in danger, there should be greater accountability over the marketing that companies are trying to pass…

> Elon has been personally promising real FSD next year every year for the past 5 years. Even funnier in video format: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7oZ-AQszEI

There seems to be a progression there from ‘I think it’ll be able to drive the easiest roads in a year or two’ to ‘It’ll be 2–4× safer than humans soon’. So in my opinion calling all of it ‘promising real FSD’ is at least half as misleading as the marketing.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#139

Post by fortran77 »

JPKab wrote: post #129
fortran77 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on. I own two Teslas (a new P100D with the FSD paid for and a new "plaid") and even I'm not this big a fanboy-apologist. Elon has promised the moon. If it's a "lane assist", call it a "lane assist." I think the driver is primarily responsible, but Tesla is also culpable. I've never used the "self-driving" features -- even the smart lane-assist/cruise control --- other than a few minutes on a clear road to try…

I'm not a fan boy. I have endless criticism of Tesla, especially on the service front. And let's not even get into the build quality issues, particularly with the body panels. I'm a fan boy of truth, reason, logic, and individual responsibility. All of which are in extremely short supply at the LA Times. On this specific topic, truth is being shaded deliberately to drive clicks. There is an obvious motivation to make…

> I'm not a fan boy.

Fair enough.

> I'm a fan boy of truth, reason, logic, and individual responsibility.

So you are a fan boy?

> And let's not even get into the build quality issues, particularly with the body panels.

I think Tesla made a big mistake calling the "Model 3" a Tesla. They should have had a different brand for that to set consumer expectations appropriately (like the "Yearn" or the "Strive")

> when it was really a dipshit abusing cruise control.

I'm not going to call anyone who died in a car accident a "dipshit."

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#140

Post by formerly_proven »

pc86 wrote: post #79
formerly_proven wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very interesting opinion, however, I don't think it works like that in any jurisdiction.

It works like this in just about every US jurisdiction, it's just that most of the time the DA declines to prosecute if your brakes fail. But there's no legal protection, you're still possibly going to be charges.

If you kill someone with a car in a way that's neither negligent nor reckless I don't see how it could fulfill the criteria for involuntary manslaughter which are exactly those things.
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