A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter? • Hacker News Board

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#11

Post by CPLX » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #2

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

That's an opinion not a statement of current policy or reality.

In the real world we have pretty extensive precedents about consumer product safety, and manufacturers are very often liable for design decisions that lead to harm, even if nominally speaking the user was supposed to be ultimately responsible.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#12

Post by ct0 » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #2

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Do we hold pilots accountable when the plane in on autopilot? Genuinely curious.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#13

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

>“Whether a [Level 2] automated driving system is engaged or not, every available vehicle requires the human driver to be in control at all times, and all state laws hold the human driver responsible for the operation of their vehicles,” a NHTSA spokesperson said.

This is going to be the interesting part. To my mind this is where partial automated driving systems are basically incompatible with people and cars. There is just no way a person who is behind the wheel but who isn't driving can be in control and highly attentive in the same way as a person who is actually driving.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#14

Post by nradov » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #2

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

There is a huge difference between criminal guilt (as in the article) versus civil liability (as in your example). Those are not at all equivalent.

After the criminal case is resolved, the victims or their next-of-kin will probably try to sue the driver and Tesla in civil court for wrongful death.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#15

Post by nradov » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

ct0 wrote: post #12

lettergram wrote: post #2

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Do we hold pilots accountable when the plane in on autopilot? Genuinely curious.

Yes

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#16

Post by vngzs » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

In my experience driving Teslas on autopilot (a few dozen hours), you need to keep watching the road. The whole time. Especially on on/off ramps and around traffic lights. I almost watched a Tesla I was operating drive into a meridian on a highway off-ramp because the concrete was approximately the same color as the road. I slowed down to see how long it would take to detect the coming collision ... and if I hadn't been watching carefully, it would have been too late.

Yes, drivers must still pay attention in self-driving cars. Probably a future exists where that is no longer necessary, but that's not today.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#17

Post by vardump » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

This is factually completely correct.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#18

Post by uptown » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

Legislators that are allowing these things on the road are culpable too.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#19

Post by NikolaeVarius » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

ct0 wrote: post #12

lettergram wrote: post #2

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Do we hold pilots accountable when the plane in on autopilot? Genuinely curious.

Yes, Pilots are responsible for the plane. Even if the autopilot messes up, there is a reason there are multiple pilots in the cockpit, they are supposed to take control.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#20

Post by fortran77 » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

Oh come on. I own two Teslas (a new P100D with the FSD paid for and a new "plaid") and even I'm not this big a fanboy-apologist.

Elon has promised the moon. If it's a "lane assist", call it a "lane assist."

I think the driver is primarily responsible, but Tesla is also culpable.

I've never used the "self-driving" features -- even the smart lane-assist/cruise control --- other than a few minutes on a clear road to try them out. Too scary for me.