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A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

latimes.com

121–130 of 150 posts

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#121
post #12

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Do we hold pilots accountable when the plane in on autopilot? Genuinely curious.

Well the pilots are dead in a lot of incidents so it's kinda moot? Airlines are sued all the time over crashes and right now Boeing is being sued over crashes from MCAS, even though there is a magic combination the pilots could have pressed to override it.

Generally, in any kind of crash investigation the pilots are one of the least important things to look at - telling people to do X or Y to mitigate some risk has a terrible track record.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello sir would you like to buy our Car (tm) on pg 39 of purchase contract its clearly stated its a bicycle for now as we are still developing our Car (tm) to be a car. Tell me how is that different to calling a driver assist a Autopilot as it aspires to be an autopilot but for now its just a driver assist called Autopilot*.

Except the purchase page clearly state that autonomous features are not avaiable today, and the car itself constantly reminds you to be in control. Also, Autopilot on Wikipedia: "An autopilot is a system used to control the path of an aircraft, car, marine craft or spacecraft without requiring constant manual control by a human operator. Autopilots do not replace human operators. Instead, the autopilot assists the op…

Kinda pointless, since you sidestep the whole point.

I am not interested in PR style discussions with technicalities being used as a scapegoat points.

Its entirely unproductive and should be strictly reserved to cable news programs.

If i buy strawberry ice-cream in strawberry ice-cream packaging I dont give a fuck that there is a sign on the back of package saying this is frozen broccoli.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#123
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we hold pilots accountable when the plane in on autopilot? Genuinely curious.

Well the pilots are dead in a lot of incidents so it's kinda moot? Airlines are sued all the time over crashes and right now Boeing is being sued over crashes from MCAS, even though there is a magic combination the pilots could have pressed to override it. Generally, in any kind of crash investigation the pilots are one of the least important things to look at - telling people to do X or Y to mitigate some risk has a…

> Well the pilots are dead in a lot of incidents so it's kinda moot?

It's not moot because most occurrences don't result in death. Occurrences are investigated both to establish fault (which can and does sometimes result in pilots losing their flight status and/or jobs), and from a safety perspective to try to prevent or minimize future occurrences.

> Generally, in any kind of crash investigation the pilots are one of the least important things to look at

This is not true. Most accidents and incidents are caused at least in part by pilot error.

- https://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/aviation-accident/why-planes-...

- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12136068_Factors_as...

- https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_...

> telling people to do X or Y to mitigate some risk has a terrible track record.

This is not true at all, at least when it comes to aircraft pilots. As anyone who's been to flight school knows, about 90% of the curriculum could reasonably be described as "telling the pilot to do X or Y to mitigate risk". And it works! There are millions of flights every year, and the overwhelmingly vast majority of them are safe (because pilots actively & successfully mitigate risk).

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#124
post #77

No. It's easy to blame the driver, until you consider whether or not the premise of a " partially automated self driving car" is fit for the road. It is not possible to both "stay alert" to anywhere near the same degree required for manual driving, and let an automated navigation system take control. If you sell something inherently dangerous to people under the premise that it is not dangerous provided you do someth…

> It's easy to blame the driver, until you consider whether or not the premise of a "partially automated self driving car" is fit for the road. It is not possible to both "stay alert" to anywhere near the same degree required for manual driving, and let an automated navigation system take control. This is a poor argument. Aeroplane autopilots were "partial automation" for decades - possibly still are for all I know -…

That's a poor comparison, autopilot is a borrowed name. Planes are not cars, there are no intersections in the air, collision avoidance is a slower game unlike in a car.

Additionally, in aviation automation has been around for a long time even though the challenges are more primitive... and they recognised early on that it is instinctual for the pilot to mentally disengage when systems become more automated, as a result this is an integral part of pilot training - it's not part of driving tests or learning to drive despite being an instinct you have to unintuitively fight against, and yet manoeuvring decisions and hazard awareness and response happens at a lot faster rate in a car than in an airliner.

In other words, automation does affect the pilot in aviation, but arguably less... and even then, they explicitly train for it to fight the instinct to disengage.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#125

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…

> Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don't stop the car for an obstacle or traffic signal? Probably, but that's because America is highly litigious and has lost the concept of personal responsibility.

A decent case can be made for making GM and Ford responsible, if you view tort law from an economic perspective rather than a moral perspective.

Under the moral perspective approach tort law's goal is to identify those whose negligence or wrongdoing are responsible for some harm and making them bear the cost of that harm.

That works fine when it is hard to have big torts that cause so much damage that the tortfeasor cannot cover it. You then start having to have insurance. Potential tortfeasors might have insurance that pays if their torts cause too much damage, and potential victims might have insurance that pays if they get harmed by an uninsured tortfeasor.

When an uninsured tortfeasor harms an uninsured victim and the victim needs expensive emergency medical treatment that they cannot afford they get it and the hospital pays or the taxpayers pay.

Under an approach to tort law based on an economic perspective it is not about blame. It is about putting responsibility where it can do the most to reduce the number and severity of similar future torts.

If Tesla and GM and Ford are responsible when their driver assist features are involved in an accident, regardless of whether it was user error or use stupidity or bad design or a manufacturing defect or whatever that causes, they will have good data on how often this happens, how much damage it causes, how those compare between their cars and the other cars, and can try to make changes to reduce frequency and severity if it turns out that their cars are having this issues at a higher rate than expected.

Under the insurance approach in the moral-based tort system, the insurance companies will have data on how often each company's cars have these problems so they can set premiums based on that. Drivers of higher risk cars will pay more to insure against accidents they are at fault in. All of us will pay more for coverage that covers us against accidents caused by underinsured drivers.

That might provide some incentive to the car companies to address the issue--if people know they are going to have to pay more for insurance if they buy one of your cars they might be more likely to choose a different car--but it isn't likely to be very much incentive.

With the approach in the economic-based tort system there are more incentives to actually improve safety instead of just raising prices for insurance.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#126
post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

It's a badly named and irresponsibly advertised lane assist system. I recently rented an Audi Q5 and a Toyota Corolla that both had vision-based lane assist and radar distance-keeping systems baked into the cruise control. It's clearly just cruise control, slightly more sophisticated than the hand-operated throttle lock in my dad's restored 1940s antique truck, but just cruise control nonetheless. That's obvious from…

It's EXACTLY like that in a Tesla. Even when your hands are on the wheel, you still get nagged to tug on it constantly. Autopilot is not a groundbreaking feature at all. It's just like the Audi Q5 (my wife owns one, and I end up driving that all the time as well since my wife has terrible night vision). My wife specifically pointed out (in a critical way) "What's the big deal with Tesla? My car does the same thing." I had to explain to her that most people conflate FSD with Autopilot.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#127
post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

Car was a 2016 model. Up until 2019, Tesla still said each car came eq with FSD hardware. https://web.archive.org/web/20190131055138/https://www.tesla... PPL see that and think it's true, that their car can drive itself.

All Teslas are equipped with FSD hardware. The upgrade turns on the FSD software. Hardware or not, you don't have FSD unless you pay for it.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla gives out conflicting messages. For years, and even today, there are Tesla-produced videos that say: > The driver is only in the seat for legal reasons. The car is driving itself. So while there is a disclaimer, there's also Tesla's not so subtle nudge nudge wink wink implications. They did the same with Summon. While the fine print said "Do not use while distracted. Pay attention to the vehicle at all times",…

The driver is still constantly reminded to stay in control, and you even have to agree this to before enabling Autopilot. Tesla never said Autopilot is autonomous.

> constantly reminded

Now, yes.

A couple of years ago? Every fifteen _minutes_.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#129
post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

Oh come on. I own two Teslas (a new P100D with the FSD paid for and a new "plaid") and even I'm not this big a fanboy-apologist. Elon has promised the moon. If it's a "lane assist", call it a "lane assist." I think the driver is primarily responsible, but Tesla is also culpable. I've never used the "self-driving" features -- even the smart lane-assist/cruise control --- other than a few minutes on a clear road to try…

I'm not a fan boy. I have endless criticism of Tesla, especially on the service front. And let's not even get into the build quality issues, particularly with the body panels.

I'm a fan boy of truth, reason, logic, and individual responsibility. All of which are in extremely short supply at the LA Times.

On this specific topic, truth is being shaded deliberately to drive clicks. There is an obvious motivation to make people think that a self-driving car killed people, when it was really a dipshit abusing cruise control. It can happen with my wife's Audi, and probably has happened, but without Tesla in the headline, it's not ideal clickbait.

Regarding Elon "promising the moon", I simply don't understand how FSD relates to Autopilot in this case. If you can read, any misunderstanding someone has about Autopilot being FSD is cleared up immediately upon activation. Alert after alert after message flashes on the screen.

I grew up spending a lot of time on boats, and even worked on a crab boat as a teenager. Autopilot on boats is never mistaken for a self-driving feature. It maintains a compass heading, and nobody is dumb enough to think it does anything else. So if the marketing team has purposefully called it autopilot to hype it up, I'm in agreement the name should be changed. BUT, and this is an important BUT, I don't think it would have changed the outcome of this situation. Dipshits have caused accidents abusing cruise control since cruise control came out. The lane assist version has increased the confidence of dipshits to look at their phones while driving, and that's a conversation worth having as to what should be done about it. But that's not specific to one car company.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article, they already have. The articles kinda vague on why exactly the driver is being charged, though. Reading between the lines, I suspect its not just because he had the autopilot engaged, but was engaged in some form of gross negligence at the same time (sleeping, playing videogames on his phone, etc).

Isn't blowing through a red light directly resulting in the deaths of two people typically going to result in vehicular manslaughter charges? In other words, blowing through a red light is a sufficient amount of negligence in my mind for vehicular manslaughter.

I don't think so, though I'm not positive. The cases I see in the news usually involve some extra piece of wrong doing (being under the influence, almost exclusively).
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