No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation • Hacker News Board

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#261

Post by Mikeb85 » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:21 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #108

ct0 wrote: post #23

Funny that they're saying this now because fermented drinks used to protect people from health issues when the water supply was not clean enough to drink.

With beer, this was because the brewer needed to boil the water used in order to kill off any microbes which would compete with the yeast, or it would go "off". It's a very important step for brewing beer. Then the beer would be stored in barrels/casks to help reduce the chance of introducing further microbes, plus the use of preservatives like hops to help keep it longer. With wine, people generally mashed the grape…

> If people would have boiled their drinking water, it would have been safe to drink.

For a limited time. The live cultures and then alcohol in fermented drinks keep the bad bacteria at bay.

Keep in mind in the past, not everyone had a convenient source of heat in their homes.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#262

Post by wonderwonder » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:21 PM UTC

perardi wrote: post #210

caeril wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: alcohol is one of the best drugs on the planet for anyone on the spectrum of introversion to crippling social anxiety. In all my (many) years, I have found no better path to becoming socially acceptable (even likable) to neurotypicals/extroverts than 3-4 shots of vodka. This is an unfortunate, but very real fact for many of us. I've heard good things about Phenibut, but (1) it's very difficult to obtain…

Oh-ho, no, not in my experience. I used to be devastatingly introverted. Alcohol helped, but it’s nothing compared to GHB or MDMA. Ecstasy will give you the gift of gab like you can’t believe. minor edit: I should say I am ignoring the context of where it’s acceptable to do such things. You probably shouldn’t do G at Christmas with the in-laws. (Though our quarantine Christmas this year with friends…) I’m just making…

sure, but its not really socially acceptable to drop X at the company happy hour. also mistakenly falling into a G Hole at the local BBQ is generally frowned upon. Having a couple beers is unlikely to lead to career or social suicide.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#263

Post by ravenstine » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:21 PM UTC

tharne wrote: post #4

Don't worry, in 5-10 years it will be good for you again. I still remember being lectured in school on the food pyramid and the importance of getting your 8-10 servings of grains a day.

The first time I started to wake up to government one-size-fits-all health policies was back in my 8th grade health class when we were being taught about the food pyramid, and this one kid asked the teacher why hamburgers are considered junk food when they pretty much fit into the model food pyramid. I remember the teacher being stumped and uttered out a barely comprehensible response after an awkward moment.

At first I thought that kid was a smartass, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that he wasn't wrong. I've you've got an American hamburger with all the fixin's, although its proportions aren't exactly like the food pyramid, it's close enough that it's hard to classify it as being unhealthy unless it's laced with extra cheese and barbecue sauce and whatnot. Yeah, there's fat in the patty, but the whole fat being bad thing is pretty much one of the biggest forms of bullshit ever invented by health policy.

This isn't to say that I actually think hamburgers are health food, but that the food pyramid is kind of a farce, especially in the sense that it implies that grains are some sort of nutritional necessity that should be consumed in greater quantities than everything else.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#264

Post by anoplus » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:21 PM UTC

Before talking about what amounts are good or bad, the cultural phenomenon of drinking has always been mysterious to me. Alcohol feels overrated. It seems like no more than symbolic association with social life, or celebration. I love socializing and celebrating, but when I want to seize the moment, I want sharp senses - not the opposite. Also, I find it not tasty honestly.

I trust people to like having me as their company even when not participating in drinking.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#265

Post by helsinkiandrew » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

Can anyone find any research in the citations that my glass of red wine in the evening - although it may increase atherosclerosis and have other health implications - doesn't have benefits that offset the drawbacks.

https://world-heart-federation.org/wp-content/uploads/WHF-Po...

How much do the social, relaxation, and stress relief benefit my health. In the same way that taking a walk in a polluted city has pros and cons or the enjoyment someone might get from sky diving or taking up motorcycling.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#266

Post by xenocratus » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #203

asdf_snar wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then at some point people, as adults, feel like they have to drink to enjoy themselves? I wonder what happened. It feels like this question is disingenuous. You don't need fire starter to start a fire either, but wouldn't it be silly to conclude fire starter doesn't make starting a fire easier? Moderate alcohol consumption in an intimate environment is a lot of fun. Put differently, if alcohol didn't present such s…

I don’t understand your comparison with a fire. Your claim that moderate alcohol consumption makes things more fun is part of the point of my post. Is this actually true, or just a rationalization of people who already drink? No judgement for those who do drink, by the way.

I used to hate drinking and only drank very small quantities of alcohol at parties/gatherings. That's changed somewhat in the past few years. I've only been drunk 3-4 times in my life (I'm 29, male, living in a Western country), and even then it was mild (no blackouts, hangovers, feeling sick, etc.). However, I believe that when I do drink for social lubrication purposes, it does help. I'm quite introverted/withdrawn usually, and a few drinks definitely help with altering that balance a bit.

Of course, I've not done control trials on myself, with placebos and so on. It's just anecdata.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#267

Post by mountainriver » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

Two bad things is worse than one bad thing unfortunately, but yes I agree that alcohol is one of the worst

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#268

Post by jsonne » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

asdf_snar wrote: post #70

DamnYuppie wrote: post #10

Yes but a moderate amount with good friends is great for my soul.

My friend and family groups have been making a consistent effort to stop romanticizing alcohol and have gatherings without it. There's no denying alcohol is a social lubricant that can be very enjoyable.

Agreed. I'm not against alcohol but I find I can get 80%-90% of the benefits by following the "ritual" of it with a mocktail and simply setting aside time where I give myself permission to relax and socialize. Alcohol is fine in moderation but its not as necessary as folks think to having those enjoyable experiences.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#269

Post by scotty79 » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #18

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

> if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. Please do not decide policy using this kind of reasoning. Maybe we should legalise more stuff, but “worse things are legal” is not a good reason. > A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. — Ralph Waldo…

It would at least give people some options and some would choose less harmful ones.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#270

Post by tcskeptic » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

beepbooptheory wrote: post #135

tcskeptic wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about this recently watching a conversation between Lex Fridman and Bryan Johnson and it struck me that there is a huge difference in optimizing lifestyle choices for human physical and mental performance, and optimizing lifestyle choices for human flourishing, or even say joy and wonder. I feel like there is this growing misunderstanding that the "optimal" human is one that can be the most productive…

I think saying its a misunderstanding is not giving people enough credit: we are constantly incentivized if not required to eschew joy and wonder in order to be productive and optimal. I don't think most people even have the chance to reflect on what they really want, they just need to make money to pay their rent.

But it seems to me that the people that are most focused on being productive and optimal in this weirdly obsessive way are pretty high income -- they are not just scraping by to pay rent. I work with a company that does manufacturing here in the US -- it is pretty clear to me that the group of folks in our company that are skilled labor, hourly employees that are pretty well compensated, have more fun and make more time to experience joy and wonder than folks (like myself) that are more highly compensated and in the white collar world. This does not hold true for the lower end unskilled labor folks who have almost unavoidable material financial concerns due to income level. Now, I acknowledge this is very small sample size, but it makes me think.