Does Tesla’s autopilot normally stop at red lights? My Subaru’s equivalent doesn’t (Unless there’s a car in front of me that also stops at the light).
Not in 2019. That feature was added in 2020.
A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
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Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#52I think the real problem is the driver monitoring system. Openpilot nailed it with their eye camera monitoring. There is no need to touch the wheel which makes it more relaxing but you can not take your eyes of the road, which is far more important then keeping your hand on the wheel. Both would even be better.
Still trying to figure out why this is not mandatory for all lane keeping assistents.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#53Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.
There is a huge difference between criminal guilt (as in the article) versus civil liability (as in your example). Those are not at all equivalent. After the criminal case is resolved, the victims or their next-of-kin will probably try to sue the driver and Tesla in civil court for wrongful death.
According to the article, they already have.
The articles kinda vague on why exactly the driver is being charged, though. Reading between the lines, I suspect its not just because he had the autopilot engaged, but was engaged in some form of gross negligence at the same time (sleeping, playing videogames on his phone, etc).
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#54Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.
There is a huge difference between criminal guilt (as in the article) versus civil liability (as in your example). Those are not at all equivalent. After the criminal case is resolved, the victims or their next-of-kin will probably try to sue the driver and Tesla in civil court for wrongful death.
The example the parent gives is potentially a criminal liability as well. If you know the railing on your balcony is wobbly and a guest leaning on it falls to their death, you're definitely open to criminal negligence charges coming your way.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…
Have you ever seen those signs on the back of dump trucks on the highway that state something like, “Stay Back: Truck Driver Not Responsible for Cracked Windshields”?
That's complete bullshit though. It does not dissolve liability for things like improperly covered loads.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#56The premise of this article is that a trial involving a crash with a level 2 system[1] is fundamentally different than one involving a level 1, without making the case for that. In both cases the driver is responsible, and expected to monitor the road. Why would someone crashing while using e.g. a lane-keeping system be in a different position legally than someone using cruise control? Level 1 driving assistance has…
Tesla is marketing it as a level 5 system. They don't directly say that of course, but they are implying strongly it is level 5 and that is enough.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#57This might not be a hot take, but I think some of the blame should be shifted onto the Tesla. This guy killed people, and it should not have happened on his watch, however the car should not have blown through a red light. For instance my car has lane keep assist and you can drive while pretty much not touching the wheel but still paying attention. It has almost pulled me into the car next to me due to a random construction line fading on the highway.
I'm not saying this guy isn't guilty, all I'm saying is maybe Tesla should shoulder some of the blame here. I'm probably a very small minority in this thinking however.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#58Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.
Do we hold pilots accountable when the plane in on autopilot? Genuinely curious.
In the U.S., the FAA provides quite a few regulations that specifically forbid the use of autopilot in certain circumstances (e.g. "Autopilot - Minimum Altitudes for Use [0]). More over, the FAA recognizes that extensive use of autopilot functions can degrade a pilot's skills and has issued a SAFO [1] with guidance for aircraft operations and pilot training.
[0]https://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part135-93-FAR.shtml [1] https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_op...
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…
It may come down to deeper analysis that looks at both root and proximate causes. If Tesla's design was considered faulty from a safety standpoint and substantially contributed to the accident, I would imagine they will have some portion of responsibility. I also think the generalized caveat that it's always the drivers fault is a dangerous one that can incentivize manufacturer's to take unnecessary risks (e.g., less…
I think an industry wide analysis of driver assist systems is likely warranted by NHTSA to form a framework for liability and communications/marketing capabilities to consumers. Think EPA emissions stickers for autos, but for driver assist.
> I also think the generalized caveat that it's always the drivers fault is a dangerous one that can incentivize manufacturer's to take unnecessary risks (e.g., less testing/quality in favor of delivering on schedule because they can always push the risk - sometimes unknown - to the end user).
If the driver is not paying attention, that is the driver's fault. If you can't provide your attention, you shouldn't be in the driver's seat. And if you kill people, do not pass go, go directly to jail. Such are the consequences of being responsible for thousands of pounds of mobility moving at speed.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#60Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.
Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…
I think there's a case to be made for banning level 2 and 3 autonomy entirely as too likely to result in distracted people not paying attention in general. But given that we have decided to allow them having lawsuits against car companies where the driver assistance systems work as intended isn't the right solution. If we want to crack down it should be a law or regulatory change to it applies evenly to everybody's systems.
I'm not saying necessarily that we should or should restrict that sort of limited autonomy, just that I think the tradeoffs and empirical questions aren't obvious and you could make an argument for it.