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A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

latimes.com

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Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#31

Post by LeifCarrotson »

JPKab wrote: post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

It's a badly named and irresponsibly advertised lane assist system.

I recently rented an Audi Q5 and a Toyota Corolla that both had vision-based lane assist and radar distance-keeping systems baked into the cruise control. It's clearly just cruise control, slightly more sophisticated than the hand-operated throttle lock in my dad's restored 1940s antique truck, but just cruise control nonetheless. That's obvious from the engagement mechanism on the steering wheel, from the way it tugs at the power steering when the painted lane lines bend near intersections, from the "Please take control" alert and disengagement when it hasn't felt a sufficiently strong override from your hands on the wheel in 10 seconds... Is that experience anything like the implementation inside a Tesla? If so, I can't imagine why any driver would be confused, if not, that seems pretty negligent on Tesla's behalf.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#32

Post by juanani »

jeroenhd wrote: post #7

Yes. Tesla cars are not self-driving cars, despite their marketing. They probably won't be for years to come. I don't think anyone who has read up on the current state of self driving would come to any other conclusion. At best the convicted drivers could sue Tesla for damages because of their advertising after conviction, because Tesla puts a lot of effort into their marketing materials to convince people that the c…

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Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#34

Post by [deleted] »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #22
lettergram wrote: post #2

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…

[deleted]

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#35

Post by 101008 »

If the drivers must be always in control of the vehicle (according to the manual and the activation of Autopilot), what's good in this feature? Couldn't the driver sue Tesla for bad marketing? They are selling a feature which is a lie, aren't they?

PD: I don't own any car and I have nothing against Tesla.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#36

Post by bluGill »

jeroenhd wrote: post #7

Yes. Tesla cars are not self-driving cars, despite their marketing. They probably won't be for years to come. I don't think anyone who has read up on the current state of self driving would come to any other conclusion. At best the convicted drivers could sue Tesla for damages because of their advertising after conviction, because Tesla puts a lot of effort into their marketing materials to convince people that the c…

Tesla's marketing is admissible in court as evidence, and probably will carry more weight than any warnings. Marketing is designed to be clear and easy to understand, so courts tend to assume that people understand the marketing intent more than the letter of the legalese warnings.

I have no idea what courts will do. It tends to take a lot of cases going opposite ways in slightly different situations before they settle down to something where anyone will attempt a prediction. We are still in the early days of this.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#37

Post by makach »

Ultimately yes. You are the driver of the car. It is involuntary manslaughter.

Even if it is a software error, even if the brakes stop working, even if x, y or z (etc)

It is always the responsibility of the driver to accept the consequences of any forseen or unforseen actions of any kind of outcome.

Depending on the unfortunate event, any mitigating events might be taken into account.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#38

Post by lkxijlewlf »

JPKab wrote: post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

Car was a 2016 model. Up until 2019, Tesla still said each car came eq with FSD hardware.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190131055138/https://www.tesla...

PPL see that and think it's true, that their car can drive itself.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#39

Post by bumby »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #22
lettergram wrote: post #2

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…

It may come down to deeper analysis that looks at both root and proximate causes. If Tesla's design was considered faulty from a safety standpoint and substantially contributed to the accident, I would imagine they will have some portion of responsibility.

I also think the generalized caveat that it's always the drivers fault is a dangerous one that can incentivize manufacturer's to take unnecessary risks (e.g., less testing/quality in favor of delivering on schedule because they can always push the risk - sometimes unknown - to the end user).

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#40

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #34
toomuchtodo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…

[deleted]

[deleted]
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