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AI could end foreign-language subtitles

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Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#191

Post by cyphar »

zeroimpl wrote: post #90
aeturnum wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also love to a more responsive subtitle format! I've seen some really wonderful custom jobs where people use different subtitle colors for different speakers, place subtitles near the speaker in the frame, etc. I think there is a ton of room for improving the expressiveness of the medium.

A pet peeve of mine has been subtitles which flip the order of words, particularly when the sentence is broken into two lines. Like the spoken text in foreign language is “A murderer is... Joe” but it gets translated to “Joe is a... murderer”. The other day I happened to see live content with closed captions, and I thought I would love the option to see subtitles like this, where words are translated precisely when s…

Unfortunately it's difficult to translate sentences between languages in a way that preserves word order and is grammatically correct in the translated language (your example is a pretty good example of this).

Different languages have very different grammar, and even the best translated subtitles won't be able to handle a clever usage of the original language's grammar.

This is one of the many tradeoffs you make with translated works. You always lose something (sometimes a lot) in the translation.

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#192

Post by [deleted] »

distances wrote: post #179
jillesvangurp wrote: post #167

AI is also able to create sub titles. So, people will have a choice. Many people prefer subtitles. Dubbing movies is common in big countries where the locals speak nothing else than their own language. Here in Germany, you have to pay attention if you go to the cinema but they do have original language movies as well. Lots of Germans go to see those instead of the badly dubbed versions. I tossed out my TV ages ago be…

> Netflix solves this by offering German sub titles. This is my pet peeve about streaming services. Why would they have only German subtitles in Germany? The licensing costs of all major languages can't be prohibitive. I only watch content that has English subtitles -- Netflix has thankfully improved on including them, but otherwise you're mostly out of luck. Even Blu-rays need to be imported if you want to have Engl…

[deleted]

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#193

Post by bovermyer »

Gigachad wrote: post #150
bovermyer wrote: post #133

A couple points here. 1. AI might be able to prevent bad dubbing/subbing, but it will not be able to compete with _good_ dubbing/subbing in our lifetimes. There's an artistry there that no AI can match. 2. I love subtitles and prefer original audio + English subtitles in anything foreign-language. Besides the voices matching up to the movement of the actors' lips and thus not breaking my immersion, I also adore heari…

> There's an artistry there that no AI can match. This has been said a few times already and been proven false. The quality of GANs is moving at a staggering pace.

Saying there's proof and there actually being proof are two very different things.

Show me the proof.

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#194

Post by meheleventyone »

jack_pp wrote: post #189
meheleventyone wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I can certainly understand how public companies make decisions in their search for infinite profits. Well yes because it's not exactly novel or complex. My point isn't that there is no rationale it's whether we should just blindly go along with it.

Who is we? We the creators? We the consumers?

We as wider society which is why I criticize the system rather than the players.

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#195

Post by pavelrub »

aeturnum wrote: post #3

This would be a lovely option to have and I find it hilarious that anyone imagines that subtitles are some kind of problem we are trying to get out of. Adding text to movies has a huge array of advantages: it preserves the original performances, it makes the dialog accessible to people with hearing or auditory processing disabilities, they can be multiplexed in a way that audio cannot, etc. Obviously it would be wond…

In my experience people who dislike subtitles are mostly native English speakers living in English-speaking countries, who are used to the fact that almost all the media they consume is produced in their native language, and so they’ve never developed the ability to read subtitles comfortably.

When the occasional rare case arises where they need to watch a foreign film/show, they find it straining to both read the subtitles and watch the film, and so they conclude that subtitles are bad or “not for them”. In practice this stems from lack of practice — the perceived conscious effort of having to read subtitles while watching a film disappears entirely after you have done it a few times with sufficient regularity, and becomes completely effortless, subconscious, and automatic. But this is a skill that needs to be developed. Saying that subtitles are bad because they distract from the film is like saying that riding a bicycle is bad because you fall all the time, when in reality you just haven’t learned to ride one.

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#196

Post by mehphp »

Gigachad wrote: post #146
tompetry wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very surprised more people watched the dubbed version of Squid Game over the subtitles. I saw a friend watching the dubbed version and to me it didn't "preserve the original performances" as you say. Surprised subtitles are a barrier, I enjoy them personally, but I guess they have the data to know. I have tested out services that translate your "own voice" to another language and it was pretty cool, although I c…

For me, reading the subtitles takes away from the experience much more than any kind of loss in authenticity does. Keeping my eyes on the text takes away from the visual.

I honestly wonder if this is a reading speed thing. I don't notice keeping my eyes on them at all.

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#197

Post by zeroimpl »

lisper wrote: post #153
shkkmo wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But translation doesn't really work like that. There are significant tradeoffs between verbosity, cadence, meaning and subtext when translating. The different contraints are why the forieng dubbibg and foreign subtitles are usually quite different. You generally only see word for word matches with subtitles when the subtitles are in the same language as the original lines spoken by the actors.

And the GP's example is the perfect illustration. "A murderer is Joe" sounds really weird. No native English speaker would ever say that. They would say, "Joe is a murderer" or " The murderer is Joe" or even "One of the murderers is Joe." But never "A murderer is Joe." Maybe in a Victorian novel, but not in a movie.

There are certainly tradeoffs, which is why I said I’d like the option.

Since I’m moderately familiar with the other language, I really just need the translation for words I don’t understand or mis-hear.

There is such a thing as a real-time translation. I’ve heard it in news broadcasts when a politician speaks a foreign language. It also happens all the time at the UN and other international negotiations. It works well but has downsides such as occasional latency while the translator needs to hear a few more words before they can translate.

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#198

Post by jack_pp »

meheleventyone wrote: post #194
jack_pp wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is we? We the creators? We the consumers?

We as wider society which is why I criticize the system rather than the players.

How would society prevent companies from producing mediocre content? I don't think society is a useful model here, that is why I asked about producers and consumers. As long as consumers keep consuming mediocre content then there will be producers for this type of content. People vote with their wallets so "society" is at fault and also we as consumers of quality content can't force people to not like mediocre content

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#199

Post by Izkata »

throwaway675309 wrote: post #105
dheera wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree, I often much prefer subtitles to dubbing as I can hear the original voice artist's tone of expression as it was intended to be. Also, languages are bridges, not barriers, by exposing yourself more to another language you will learn it if you don't reject it.

That's a cute sentiment but there is no evidence that merely being exposed to a foreign language necessarily allows you to learn that language. I think you're confusing the movie 13th Warrior for reality. I have friends who religiously watch subtitled anime only and they are no closer to learning Japanese in any real sense of the word than a person who would watch the dubs, except for picking up a stray random word h…

Subtitles won't really help with sentence structure or conjugations, but it does help a lot with building vocabulary once you have the basics of sentence structure.

Re: AI could end foreign-language subtitles

#200

Post by distances »

Mindwipe wrote: post #190
distances wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Netflix solves this by offering German sub titles. This is my pet peeve about streaming services. Why would they have only German subtitles in Germany? The licensing costs of all major languages can't be prohibitive. I only watch content that has English subtitles -- Netflix has thankfully improved on including them, but otherwise you're mostly out of luck. Even Blu-rays need to be imported if you want to have Engl…

> The licensing costs of all major languages can't be prohibitive. It's not the cost, it's that their removal is a disincentive for people to use VPNs to hop outside of their usual residential territory.

Netflix doesn't ship all the languages even with their own content, so it can't be the only reason. But good point, never thought of that, and truly sad if access restrictions again is the reason for legal services delivering less than piracy.
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