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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

artforum.com

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#221

Post by nineparts »

hubert022 wrote: post #87

Wow this is so naive… how are they gonna define who is an artist and who is not? Why taxpayers (who may not care about art at all) should pay for this? Why a government can define that this specific group of people should get some grants, but not for example teachers or Uber drivers? Utopia

The way things stand, what they are fighting for is more like a "non-dystopia." A utopia would actually need to lead somewhere new... but at the moment the powers that be have tried absolutely EVERYTHING to stay in power and they ran out of options. This is their last bet (or rather - their last bluff - as I don't think they will make good on their promises).

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#222

Post by s1artibartfast »

barcoder wrote: post #86
chrismorgan wrote: post #15

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the…

It is basic income, so presumably the artist will be able to make additional money their art.

I wonder if they can take a full-time job in a different industry

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#223

Post by nybble41 »

Spivak wrote: post #198
leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government takes half of what I make it would probably be time for a revolution. I make a good living, but having half of what I make support 3 other people that are not my family and just giving them cash. Like being on the afternoon of Wednesday and realizing that all the work I did in the week so far was taken away to give to someone else without my input is insane. And I give over 10 percent of what I earn…

The government already takes about third-ish if you’re a wage worker in the US. Is there something special about 50% in return for, say, UBI (for you a 12k tax rebate), and guaranteed heath insurance that is unpalatable? Like I get the pessimism of taxes just disappearing to the ether but this whole idea is predicated about everyone getting something of tangible value that equalizes around the median income. Like I a…

> everyone getting something of tangible value

Paying $40k in taxes in exchange for a UBI of $35k is not "getting something of tangible value"—it's losing $5k. Those with low income (and thus low taxes) get something from UBI. Those with higher income do not. At the margin one might consider the difference to be something like a premium for unemployment insurance, but that only goes so far.

> Like I also make good money but that makes me care less rather than more about my tax burden.

If you really don't care about how much money you take home, why don't you switch to a lower-paying (but less stressful/demanding) job? Those taxes you claim you don't really care about represent unnecessary work put in relative to what you have to show for it at the end of the day.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#224

Post by s1artibartfast »

richrichardsson wrote: post #143
dskloet wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrible way to implement UBI. It causes the dreaded welfare trap where people are incentivized to do nothing. UBI should be unconditional. This makes it much easier to implement, removes the stigma, and most importantly avoids the welfare trap. You want people who rely on welfare to be encouraged to become self sufficient, not trap them in dependence.

Is the welfare trap real though? I suspect it may be for tiny minority, but imo most people would prefer to actually do something than sit on their ass and collect money for nothing. Again I may be grossly naïve in this area.

It is absolutely real and the biggest cliffs are for those already working full time.

Here's an example showing how someone making 31k per year needs to find a job making 80k a year to increase their net income.

Regarding who this impacts:

Approximately 35% of Americans make 31k.

Another approximately 40% of Americans earn between 31-80K and would be better off financially if they took a pay cut to 30K (at least in the short term). They get to see those making less living better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_trap#/media/File:Welfa...

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#225

Post by nybble41 »

Retric wrote: post #191
merpnderp wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they see an explosion of immigration, it’s because of the illegal immigrant labor market created by the massive spike in wages and massive decline in available labor. The governments can’t keep people out but also can’t make the new people citizens else it would instantly bankrupt UBI. This seems like the Achilles heel of UBI.

There are two option either immigrants are allowed to integrate with society at which point UBI should be close to cost neutral, or they aren’t allowed to integrate with society at which point immigrants don’t qualify for UBI.

I don't see anything about being "allowed to integrate with society" which would make it "cost neutral" for someone to immigrate to a country and begin drawing a UBI without any obligation to work for it. (Of course if one does have to work for it then it's not UBI; that's just a regular job.)

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#226

Post by TaylorAlexander »

telxosser wrote: post #209
SequoiaHope wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not very many people believe that a market of individual capitalists responding to supply and demand creates the best outcomes. For example many people believe that state mandated healthcare creates better outcomes. For anyone willing to look beyond a simple model of supply and demand, a deep analysis of the effects is needed.

Yea this is just wrong. If we had a true healthcare free market starting from scratch right now the money would go into blood panel sampling and building massive data sets to use machine learning algorithms for classification. If I had a full quarterly blood panel sample that went into a database in 5-10 years the most trivial random forest would crush my doctor as far as classification. Pushing 50 my visits to the d…

I only described what people believe, not what would be best.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#227

Post by Retric »

nybble41 wrote: post #225
Retric wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two option either immigrants are allowed to integrate with society at which point UBI should be close to cost neutral, or they aren’t allowed to integrate with society at which point immigrants don’t qualify for UBI.

I don't see anything about being "allowed to integrate with society" which would make it "cost neutral" for someone to immigrate to a country and begin drawing a UBI without any obligation to work for it. (Of course if one does have to work for it then it's not UBI; that's just a regular job.)

It’s not a question of what a single immigrant does, but what all immigrants do as a group. It might be that immigrants on net cost more in UBI than they contributed to the UBI program but such imbalance could just as easily go the other direction.

In the end working must provide incentives for natives to work for any UBI system to exist and those same incentives would apply to immigrants.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#228

Post by Spivak »

nybble41 wrote: post #223
Spivak wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government already takes about third-ish if you’re a wage worker in the US. Is there something special about 50% in return for, say, UBI (for you a 12k tax rebate), and guaranteed heath insurance that is unpalatable? Like I get the pessimism of taxes just disappearing to the ether but this whole idea is predicated about everyone getting something of tangible value that equalizes around the median income. Like I a…

> everyone getting something of tangible value Paying $40k in taxes in exchange for a UBI of $35k is not "getting something of tangible value"—it's losing $5k. Those with low income (and thus low taxes) get something from UBI. Those with higher income do not. At the margin one might consider the difference to be something like a premium for unemployment insurance, but that only goes so far. > Like I also make good mo…

Right, I’m not disagreeing with you, that’s what I meant by “equalizes at median income.” I just mean that economics are felt directly unlike “I pay payroll taxes for… stuff… probably?”

> If you really don't care about how much money you take home, why don't you switch to a lower-paying (but less stressful/demanding) job?

Because I have a high-paying not very demanding low stress job. So on the theory that I could be making more in exchange for more stress I guess I already took your advice.

> Those taxes you claim you don't really care about represent unnecessary work

But that’s true of all taxes. I still make more money when I make more money. At that point we’re just arguing over the number. And I would kinda rather everyone have UBI and healthcare when it what it costs me is “a non-quality of life affecting amount” which is why progressive taxes work.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#229

Post by nybble41 »

Retric wrote: post #227
nybble41 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything about being "allowed to integrate with society" which would make it "cost neutral" for someone to immigrate to a country and begin drawing a UBI without any obligation to work for it. (Of course if one does have to work for it then it's not UBI; that's just a regular job.)

It’s not a question of what a single immigrant does, but what all immigrants do as a group. It might be that immigrants on net cost more in UBI than they contributed to the UBI program but such imbalance could just as easily go the other direction. In the end working must provide incentives for natives to work for any UBI system to exist and those same incentives would apply to immigrants.

> working must provide incentives for natives to work for any UBI system to exist

Well, yes, and that's kind of an unsolved problem. The immigration issue doesn't help.

> It’s not a question of what a single immigrant does, but what all immigrants do as a group.

Agreed, but what kind of immigrants will a country with a UBI (available to immigrants) tend to attract, ones that want to work or ones that want to collect the UBI? The former group would be better served immigrating somewhere else with lower taxes and no UBI. Like-minded "natives" would most likely do the same, to some extent, though leaving one's birth country is not something undertaken lightly.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#230

Post by nybble41 »

Spivak wrote: post #228
nybble41 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everyone getting something of tangible value Paying $40k in taxes in exchange for a UBI of $35k is not "getting something of tangible value"—it's losing $5k. Those with low income (and thus low taxes) get something from UBI. Those with higher income do not. At the margin one might consider the difference to be something like a premium for unemployment insurance, but that only goes so far. > Like I also make good mo…

Right, I’m not disagreeing with you, that’s what I meant by “equalizes at median income.” I just mean that economics are felt directly unlike “I pay payroll taxes for… stuff… probably?” > If you really don't care about how much money you take home, why don't you switch to a lower-paying (but less stressful/demanding) job? Because I have a high-paying not very demanding low stress job. So on the theory that I could be…

> Because I have a high-paying not very demanding low stress job.

In that case I suppose congratulations are in order for winning the lottery.

> I still make more money when I make more money. At that point we’re just arguing over the number.

The number is important because at some point it's no longer worth the extra effort. People can almost always get more money by working more or putting in more effort, and yet it's rare for anyone to dedicate their entire life exclusively to their work. Reducing the reward from work shifts that balance point, even if you're not technically "working for free".

> And I would kinda rather everyone have UBI and healthcare when it what it costs me is “a non-quality of life affecting amount” which is why progressive taxes work.

Since we're talking about taxes here it's less about what you're willing to pay and more about what you're willing to make everyone else pay. If it were just about the cost to you there would be no need to make it compulsory—the government will be happy to accept your donation.

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