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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#191

Post by Retric »

merpnderp wrote: post #184
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty likely that some country will actually try it. Most likely one of the oil-rich welfare states in the nordics. I doubt it lasts very long though especially after they start seeing an explosion of immigration. From my experience, the citizens of those north European countries don't like people that don't look like them.

If they see an explosion of immigration, it’s because of the illegal immigrant labor market created by the massive spike in wages and massive decline in available labor. The governments can’t keep people out but also can’t make the new people citizens else it would instantly bankrupt UBI. This seems like the Achilles heel of UBI.

There are two option either immigrants are allowed to integrate with society at which point UBI should be close to cost neutral, or they aren’t allowed to integrate with society at which point immigrants don’t qualify for UBI.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#192

Post by tommiegannert »

Related to artists in Ireland...

If you're thinking of going to Dublin, I can highly recommend People's Art [1], which is an outdoors gallery (literally) around St Stephen's Green on weekends with good weather in August. Great variety and talent showing off. Sadly, it's been cancelled for CoVID. Hopefully they can get it going again.

[1] http://peoplesart.ie/ (not updated since 2020)

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#193

Post by sofixa »

kybernetyk wrote: post #186
sofixa wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because art is easy to appreciate universally ( anyone can like music or a painting), and software is not. It's an abstract thing for most people. I do think it'd be a great idea to have grants / subsidies / UBI for FOSS developers. The EU is slowly walking in that direction with donations and funding a big bounty programme for FOSS they directly use.

>and software is not. Linux and thus Android would like to have a word with you.

I'm fairly sure that there are more people capable of appreciating a song than even know what Linux is, let alone appreciate it.

And i say this with an Ubuntu daily driver.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#194

Post by boppo1 »

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #182
leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government takes half of what I make it would probably be time for a revolution. I make a good living, but having half of what I make support 3 other people that are not my family and just giving them cash. Like being on the afternoon of Wednesday and realizing that all the work I did in the week so far was taken away to give to someone else without my input is insane. And I give over 10 percent of what I earn…

You have enough to support 6 people, but, because you donate enough to support 0.6 to a beneficiary of your choice, a revolution would be required if you only had enough to support 3? Where do you want the money for UBI come from, or do you just not want it full stop?

>have enough to support 6 people

Because he chooses to trade his time and effort for it.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#195

Post by telxosser »

DocTomoe wrote: post #148
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

If you raise taxes and prices a lot, UBI will become basically useless, because it's effects will be eaten up by inflation. Hell, why wouldn't I increase rent to the UBI amount?

Of course that is what would happen. Of course prices are relative.

The idea of UBI without a massive increase in apartment/housing supply is frankly moronic. Even then though, it will all be captured. Being poor is still relative exactly like prices.

Ultimately, it will all pool upwards to the equity markets. All UBI will really end up being is a giant stimulus to the ultra rich.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#197

Post by 3pt14159 »

dagw wrote: post #166
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

The problem with a high flat tax on the first dollar earned over UBI is that it creates stronger disincentives to work. As to point 5, I would exclude citizens not living full time in the country and possibly include non-citizens who have qualified for permanent residency and have lived full time in the country for N years.

I agree with your latter point. Fully out of country[0] citizens and maybe permanent residents after a certain amount of time.

But not the high flat tax thing. For the income portion of my compensation, I pay around 50% and it's not bad. With a UBI and a flat tax we don't have to make exceptions for married couples or non-married couples. The marginal dollar is always taxed the same. And if you're making, say, $60k a year that would be $42k after the UBI so the effective tax rate is 30% which seems reasonable.

[0] There have been years where I was out of country for long enough to not have to pay taxes to Canada if I had been in one spot, but I'd moved around enough not to qualify to pay anywhere else so I was still paying taxes to Canada despite not being here for a while. Common enough digital nomad thing.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#198

Post by Spivak »

leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #165
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

If the government takes half of what I make it would probably be time for a revolution. I make a good living, but having half of what I make support 3 other people that are not my family and just giving them cash. Like being on the afternoon of Wednesday and realizing that all the work I did in the week so far was taken away to give to someone else without my input is insane. And I give over 10 percent of what I earn…

The government already takes about third-ish if you’re a wage worker in the US. Is there something special about 50% in return for, say, UBI (for you a 12k tax rebate), and guaranteed heath insurance that is unpalatable?

Like I get the pessimism of taxes just disappearing to the ether but this whole idea is predicated about everyone getting something of tangible value that equalizes around the median income.

Like I also make good money but that makes me care less rather than more about my tax burden. Like I’m comfortable enough that I don’t really care than I’m putting in more than I get out.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#199

Post by telxosser »

nix23 wrote: post #114
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

Is "artist" even a occupation? No really, is that a quality thing or so? Is a NFT-Gorilla Creator a artist? The 3 star Cook? The aerobatics Pilot? Musician...the Haskell programmer? Would Banksy count as an artist from the beginning or just when he already sold stuff for millions?

Exactly. Just go around collecting old toilets and make some Duchamp inspired masterpiece then collect your UBI.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#200

Post by Youden »

headmelted wrote: post #45
paulannesley wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art and cultural heritage may have worth outside that represented by short-term supply and demand?

I mean, OK, but one could also argue that the reason a given artist is struggling is because their work is not highly valued in the first place. Maybe the artist is making under-appreciated contributions, or maybe their work is just not good. It's subjective, which means criticism is subjective too, but it seems a poor place to start with any UBI scheme executed in good faith. I would think it would have more value a…

> but it seems a poor place to start with any UBI scheme executed in good faith.

This isn't intended to start a UBI scheme, that's an embellishment from the article title. From the article text:

"The scheme [...] is meant to assist those working in the fields of arts [...] who suffered economically as the global Covid-19 crisis surged in-country."

From another source [0], it's also time-limited to 3 years.

I think the less hype reading of the news is that artists are struggling through COVID so the government is offering support to ensure they don't lose a good chunk of the industry.

> one could also argue that the reason a given artist is struggling is because their work is not highly valued in the first place.

Art that's not valuable now could very well be found to be valuable later. Van Gogh died broke and essentially unknown but now he's one of the world's most well-known artists.

[0]: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/ireland-basic-income-arts-...

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