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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#211

Post by imtringued »

Retric wrote: post #132
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

Implementing social security in the first place took massive social upheaval. UBI as a thought experiment is never going to happen, it would take a massive political movement or economic apocalypse.

A land value tax would be more useful if someone wants to play social upheaval poker. The Danes have an incredibly long history of land value taxation where every time special interests abolished it, things go to shit very quickly and they recovered very quickly once the tax was reinstated.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#212

Post by imtringued »

DocTomoe wrote: post #148
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

If you raise taxes and prices a lot, UBI will become basically useless, because it's effects will be eaten up by inflation. Hell, why wouldn't I increase rent to the UBI amount?

The problem with UBI is a logical flaw. Only the people that do work actually end up paying taxes.

You can use UBI as a democratic allocation mechanism for landownership or resource rights where the UBI is the carrot and the taxes are the stick.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#213

Post by imtringued »

toyg wrote: post #39
lelanthran wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. But, at the end of the day it's still worth close to nothing, right? I enjoy art and music as much as anyone else but the reason those professions are so poorly paid is because the supply outstrips the demand considerably[1]. What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's alre…

> paying people for doing what they love even when you are going to, in effect, throw away whatever they produce is madness. No, it's hardcore keynesism. You're still sustaining demand in the market for all their necessities, from food and toilet paper to brushes and smart LEDs; and you are supporting the overall quality of life in the country, which passes also through people getting involved in art in various ways…

Keynes was dreaming of a world where we figured out how to solve the liquidity preference problem. I.e. tax land value and tax cash. If we did that, then we would have so much free time, that we would be spending all our time on social/cultural activities.

The inflation targeting thing was an attempt to solve the problem in a less micromanaged way. In practice you still got the usual wealth concentration cycle that everyone knows from history.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#214

Post by imtringued »

krageon wrote: post #37
lelanthran wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. But, at the end of the day it's still worth close to nothing, right? I enjoy art and music as much as anyone else but the reason those professions are so poorly paid is because the supply outstrips the demand considerably[1]. What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's alre…

Framing everything as a reflection of short-term capitalistic gain is a travesty. Culture transcends your lifetime and probably the lifetime of the people that you are a part of. You ask what value there is in that, but I am curious what value your believe there could be in anything else without it.

We do so because money is artificially scarce. There are plenty of games (like minecraft or prosperous universe) where you have everything you could possibly want at the end which then marks the start of a sandbox mode within the survival mode. Humanity is kinda like that, but once we are in sandbox mode, we don't like it and destroy the sandbox. It's like starting a new game.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#215

Post by 0xfaded »

macilacilove wrote: post #185
mollerhoj wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello from Scandinavia. No Revolutions in sight, government takes 70% (taking both tax and vat into account)

you can not take both income tax and VAT into account, because VAT is payed by the retailer really. That would count VAT twice.

The retailer gets to claim any VAT they pay back from the government. Individuals do pay 60-70% tax (if you include payroll), but it's better to look at the overall taxation rate which is ~50% of GDP.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#216

Post by bryanlarsen »

collegeburner wrote: post #208
bryanlarsen wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demand for food and housing doesn't go up with UBI, there are still the same number of people.

More desirable food (organic, grass fed, whatever) and more desirable housing will both have increased demand, especially short term. Also even if we hold food and housing constant, more money frees up what people formerly spent on food and housing to spend on other stuff so demand increases there. America has very high marginal propensity to consume so most of this will be spent. An additional tax that redistributes…

And the opposite effect happens too: UBI makes it easier to move to cheaper areas and to take the time to make food from scratch rather than relying on quick take out.

Any changes will be very marginal. Fundamental demand isn't changing, it's just a redistribution of demand. Some prices will go up, some will go down, but neither will move much.

Unless of course UBI isn't fully costed. Then the money supply increases and we will likely see inflation.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#217

Post by bitxbitxbitcoin »

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #182
leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government takes half of what I make it would probably be time for a revolution. I make a good living, but having half of what I make support 3 other people that are not my family and just giving them cash. Like being on the afternoon of Wednesday and realizing that all the work I did in the week so far was taken away to give to someone else without my input is insane. And I give over 10 percent of what I earn…

You have enough to support 6 people, but, because you donate enough to support 0.6 to a beneficiary of your choice, a revolution would be required if you only had enough to support 3? Where do you want the money for UBI come from, or do you just not want it full stop?

Serious answer: I think a lot of people envision UBI coming directly from government printing ala stimulus checks - not taxation.

The fact that inflation benefits the haves more than the have nots is… ignored.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#218

Post by beeboop »

snidane wrote: post #187
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

UBI can work if and only if you can curb monopoly private taxes (real estate rents, fees, tips). Otherwise any money handed out freely to people end up immediately eaten up by monopoly private taxes for having no competition to level prices down. Case in point: give out $1000 dollars in UBI, expect rents increase by about that amount within the next 2 years as current leases expire. To implement UBI you must first ge…

>Case in point: give out $1000 dollars in UBI, expect rents increase by about that amount within the next 2 years as current leases expire.

I see no evidence that this would be the case

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#219

Post by geocar »

barrucadu wrote: post #138
geocar wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's already too much supply? When "taxpayers" refuse to subsidize non-taxpayers, they run the risk of those non-taxpayers murdering them; the "value" is that it directly prevents death and revolt. Some people just simply don't agree that people should have to die simply because there are too many people, either because they're (direc…

Come on, the alternative to taxpayers subsidising artists isn't that artists face a choice between death or revolt. It's that artists get a different source of income (which may require stopping being an artist).

> It's that artists get a different source of income (which may require stopping being an artist).

What a peculiar thought: Is an artist still an artist if they stop being an artist?

> Come on, the alternative to taxpayers subsidising artists isn't that artists face a choice between death or revolt.

No of course not, yet artists committing suicide for being unable to create their art isn't exactly unheard of. And what I said is exactly true if you maybe think about things a little differently.

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