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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#181

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

onion2k wrote: post #103
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the city/country not invest that money in affordable housing first? Handing out a few bucks to artists will not fix the main issues of why artists and all low wage workers can't survive anymore in today's cities, namely, unaffordable housing. Europe's biggest cultural centers (London, Paris, Amsterdam, etc.) have turned into the playground of foreign billionaires, real estate speculators and >six-figure inco…

Why does the city/country not invest that money in affordable housing first? You're representing this as a dichotomy. It's not though. Governments have enough resources to do more than one thing at a time.

>Governments have enough resources to do more than one thing at a time.

They have resources, but reality has show they lack the will to properly use them as those in charge are more concerned about winning these popularity contests called "elections" rather than taking radical actions to do any meaningful change. So it's a lot less riskier for their careers to sit back and kick the can down the road while starting projects that sound good on paper and wins them sympathy ("new law wants to help struggling artists") but accomplish nothing meaningful in the end (CoL, inflation and wealth inequality will keep rising, wages will stagnate). Rinse and repeat.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#182

Post by tweetle_beetle »

leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #165
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

If the government takes half of what I make it would probably be time for a revolution. I make a good living, but having half of what I make support 3 other people that are not my family and just giving them cash. Like being on the afternoon of Wednesday and realizing that all the work I did in the week so far was taken away to give to someone else without my input is insane. And I give over 10 percent of what I earn…

You have enough to support 6 people, but, because you donate enough to support 0.6 to a beneficiary of your choice, a revolution would be required if you only had enough to support 3? Where do you want the money for UBI come from, or do you just not want it full stop?

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#183

Post by collegeburner »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #153
DocTomoe wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you raise taxes and prices a lot, UBI will become basically useless, because it's effects will be eaten up by inflation. Hell, why wouldn't I increase rent to the UBI amount?

If UBI doesn't increase the money supply (aka it is paid for with taxing), it shouldn't increase inflation.

Wrong, money velocity and demand (both probably go up under this scheme) can increase inflation. So can shortages caused by a big demand spike.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#184

Post by merpnderp »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #167
Retric wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implementing social security in the first place took massive social upheaval. UBI as a thought experiment is never going to happen, it would take a massive political movement or economic apocalypse.

I think it's pretty likely that some country will actually try it. Most likely one of the oil-rich welfare states in the nordics. I doubt it lasts very long though especially after they start seeing an explosion of immigration. From my experience, the citizens of those north European countries don't like people that don't look like them.

If they see an explosion of immigration, it’s because of the illegal immigrant labor market created by the massive spike in wages and massive decline in available labor.

The governments can’t keep people out but also can’t make the new people citizens else it would instantly bankrupt UBI.

This seems like the Achilles heel of UBI.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#185

Post by macilacilove »

mollerhoj wrote: post #179
leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government takes half of what I make it would probably be time for a revolution. I make a good living, but having half of what I make support 3 other people that are not my family and just giving them cash. Like being on the afternoon of Wednesday and realizing that all the work I did in the week so far was taken away to give to someone else without my input is insane. And I give over 10 percent of what I earn…

Hello from Scandinavia. No Revolutions in sight, government takes 70% (taking both tax and vat into account)

you can not take both income tax and VAT into account, because VAT is payed by the retailer really. That would count VAT twice.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#186

Post by kybernetyk »

sofixa wrote: post #92
kybernetyk wrote: post #62

Why artists and not open source developers? Arguably FOSS devs create far more value for society than some dingus painting stuff with his butt cheeks.

Because art is easy to appreciate universally ( anyone can like music or a painting), and software is not. It's an abstract thing for most people. I do think it'd be a great idea to have grants / subsidies / UBI for FOSS developers. The EU is slowly walking in that direction with donations and funding a big bounty programme for FOSS they directly use.

>and software is not.

Linux and thus Android would like to have a word with you.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#187

Post by snidane »

3pt14159 wrote: post #128
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

UBI can work if and only if you can curb monopoly private taxes (real estate rents, fees, tips). Otherwise any money handed out freely to people end up immediately eaten up by monopoly private taxes for having no competition to level prices down.

Case in point: give out $1000 dollars in UBI, expect rents increase by about that amount within the next 2 years as current leases expire.

To implement UBI you must first get of private taxes one by one, then reduce the public income and consumption taxes and then with much of the costs lifted up off the middle class you realize you have a society that is freed up of (feu)dal taxes again and doesn't need any welfare nor UBI anymore.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#189

Post by _8j50 »

Let's say an irish artist draws a painting that paints ISIS terrorists as freedom revolutionaries and inspires actual acts of terror, will the line be drawn there? I ask because whenever money is involved an adult conversation about incentives and power balances should be had. Would art be influenced by fears of their income which they have come to rely on being cut off?

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#190

Post by bryanlarsen »

collegeburner wrote: post #183
bryanlarsen wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If UBI doesn't increase the money supply (aka it is paid for with taxing), it shouldn't increase inflation.

Wrong, money velocity and demand (both probably go up under this scheme) can increase inflation. So can shortages caused by a big demand spike.

Demand for food and housing doesn't go up with UBI, there are still the same number of people.
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