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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

artforum.com

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#161

Post by goblin89 »

rsynnott wrote: post #159
goblin89 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. Makes my comment rather meaningless. > which already has a bunch of other artists' grants and supports I imagine most governments do it to some degree, but the question is how straightforward those grants are to get by someone who legitimately warrants one. Is there a lot of bureaucracy to get through in Ireland? do you often meet creatives receiving such a grant? traveling on it abroad?

So the big one is that earnings from art up to 50k are tax exempt, and that's very easy to get, of course.

IMO exempting from tax is qualitatively different from just giving an artist money to live off of, which is what surprised me in those French/Swiss programs.

One must either already be successful and business-savvy enough to earn money from one’s art or have a job/a sponsor, which defeats the point to some degree.

I’m aware governments offer grants where they sponsor art, but from what I know the requirements and amounts of paperwork make it not really interesting to someone without established fame or connections.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#163

Post by rsynnott »

goblin89 wrote: post #161
rsynnott wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the big one is that earnings from art up to 50k are tax exempt, and that's very easy to get, of course.

IMO exempting from tax is qualitatively different from just giving an artist money to live off of, which is what surprised me in those French/Swiss programs. One must either already be successful and business-savvy enough to earn money from one’s art or have a job/a sponsor, which defeats the point to some degree. I’m aware governments offer grants where they sponsor art, but from what I know the requirements and amo…

There are also grants (see https://www.artscouncil.ie/available-funding/ for instance, and local authorities and things have their own), but this thing seems like an interesting addition, and far less complex to administer.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#164

Post by jaclaz »

nixass wrote: post #84
unwind wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2,000 hours at 40 hours/week is 50 weeks. As a European, that sounds really really high. I believe around 1,700 is the real average for all of EU, for instance. That is not enough of course to change the result much (at 1,700 hours they would need €107 or just above four times the earmarked amount), I just wanted to point it out.

1768 hours to be more exact, at least HR in my company (FAANG) in Germany calculates it that way (85%)

Yes, the back of the envelope calculation (Italy) is:

52 weeks x 5 days/week= 260 working days

260 - 20 (minimum paid holydays) -20 (other reasons, national holidays, etc) = 220 working days

220 x 8 = 1760 hours/year, this could vary - maybe - up to 1800 hours depending on a number of factors, but not more.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#165

Post by leeroyjenkins11 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #128
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

If the government takes half of what I make it would probably be time for a revolution. I make a good living, but having half of what I make support 3 other people that are not my family and just giving them cash. Like being on the afternoon of Wednesday and realizing that all the work I did in the week so far was taken away to give to someone else without my input is insane. And I give over 10 percent of what I earn to charity, but I decide what causes to support and who to help.

The nibbling around the policy is because they know what you proposed would mean they get tared and feathered so they just use it as an excuse to buy votes.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#166

Post by dagw »

3pt14159 wrote: post #128
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

The problem with a high flat tax on the first dollar earned over UBI is that it creates stronger disincentives to work.

As to point 5, I would exclude citizens not living full time in the country and possibly include non-citizens who have qualified for permanent residency and have lived full time in the country for N years.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#167

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

Retric wrote: post #132
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

Implementing social security in the first place took massive social upheaval. UBI as a thought experiment is never going to happen, it would take a massive political movement or economic apocalypse.

I think it's pretty likely that some country will actually try it. Most likely one of the oil-rich welfare states in the nordics. I doubt it lasts very long though especially after they start seeing an explosion of immigration. From my experience, the citizens of those north European countries don't like people that don't look like them.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#168

Post by idiocrat »

City of Munich regularly buys up paintings from local artists (through an art jury). Not sure the price paid.

Because they have collected many paintings, the city has an Artothek, similar to a library, where you can step by, borrow ant take with you any painting for a nominal price (3 EUR / period of time).

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#169

Post by timeon »

lelanthran wrote: post #19
arcticbull wrote: post #2

Well that's not really universal by any metric (you have to be an artist, there can't be too many applicants or you'll get subjected to lottery) but I'm still enthusiastic. It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. These feel more like government artist in residence grants.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. But, at the end of the day it's still worth close to nothing, right? I enjoy art and music as much as anyone else but the reason those professions are so poorly paid is because the supply outstrips the demand considerably[1]. What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's alre…

I think that art is also about ideas and experiences that can stimulate another ideas. Can takes you out of your usual context of thinking. There is no demand for it. How can be there be demand for something that do not exist yet. But it can influence generations. Not every value can be directly purchased.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#170

Post by usrbinbash »

roomey wrote: post #58
usrbinbash wrote: post #52

> Martin emphasized the importance of aiding artists in continuing their work. “The minister is conscious of the value that this sector brings to all Irish citizens,” What about the work of health workers, delivery people, drivers, employees in supermarkets, cleaners, constructions workers, etc.?

I think the point is you can gain employment as a: health workers, delivery people, drivers, employees in supermarkets, cleaners, constructions workers But you can't really get employed or have a regular income as an artist (well you can but it's quite difficult). I think a good comparison might be home carers or stay at home parents. Very hard to have a regular income from these also

So? The criteria I am talking about is "produces value for society" not "how easy to employ".
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