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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

artforum.com

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#111

Post by geocar »

ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

It irks me too; It irks me because this is dangerous: Whether this succeeds or fails tells you (or me) nothing about the values (or costs) of UBI, but it is awful convincing to people who don't understand the difference between UBI and welfare, and it is hard not to imagine someone against UBI (like a capitalist) actually endorsing these kinds of welfare-mislabelled-as-UBI; to specifically shit in the pool when everyone's looking and say see? UBI doesn't work.

At best, this is a way to waste some political capital of UBI supporters, and at worst, will be used to push UBI back another decade in Ireland. For this reason I think any communists and socialists who support UBI should refuse to acknowledge this as UBI, and use the vulgarism "welfare" instead exactly as you suggest.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#112

Post by dexen »

kybernetyk wrote: post #62

Why artists and not open source developers? Arguably FOSS devs create far more value for society than some dingus painting stuff with his butt cheeks.

>why artists

The unsaid part: "recipients are supposed to publicly laud the government": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_painter

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#113

Post by tgv »

akuji1993 wrote: post #11
swarnie wrote: post #4

To me universal basic income is just that, universal. This feels like the government employing 2000 people and telling them to do nothing in particular. Also it seems the payment is set to the Irish minimum wage of €10.50 p/h. I would love to know what an actual minimum wage worker thinks of this scheme.

> telling them to do nothing in particular Nobody told them anything close to that. Any research towards basic income tells us that people continue working close to as much as before. So this seems like a really unnecessary combative comment. Regarding minimum wage workers, one thing can be bad, while the other is also bad. So not really an argument.

From the other UBI thread:

> Multiple studies of where basic income was tried in the real world found it to reduce work.

> For example, "Manitoba, Canada experimented with Mincome, a basic guaranteed income, in the 1970s. In the town of Dauphin, Manitoba, labor only decreased by 13%, much less than expected" [1]. There are plenty of others.

So not "any research". The research you think of are probably academic and/or pilot studies, which is absolutely not UBI.

But I think the parent wrote in a hurry. It should probably have said "without demands or restrictions".

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#114

Post by nix23 »

ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

Is "artist" even a occupation? No really, is that a quality thing or so? Is a NFT-Gorilla Creator a artist? The 3 star Cook? The aerobatics Pilot? Musician...the Haskell programmer?

Would Banksy count as an artist from the beginning or just when he already sold stuff for millions?

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#115

Post by slig »

usrbinbash wrote: post #52

> Martin emphasized the importance of aiding artists in continuing their work. “The minister is conscious of the value that this sector brings to all Irish citizens,” What about the work of health workers, delivery people, drivers, employees in supermarkets, cleaners, constructions workers, etc.?

>What about the work of health workers, delivery people, drivers, employees in supermarkets, cleaners, constructions workers, etc.?

They're the ones paying taxes so that the government can then redistribute the money to unemployable artists.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#116

Post by DoingIsLearning »

unwind wrote: post #65
chrismorgan wrote: post #15

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the…

2,000 hours at 40 hours/week is 50 weeks. As a European, that sounds really really high. I believe around 1,700 is the real average for all of EU, for instance. That is not enough of course to change the result much (at 1,700 hours they would need €107 or just above four times the earmarked amount), I just wanted to point it out.

> 1,700 is the real average for all of EU

Salary average is also misleading, there is a fair amount of inequality in European salaries and total compensation, a median would be better suited.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#117

Post by bserge »

ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

No post body was provided.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#118

Post by rbanffy »

valdiorn wrote: post #90
socialdemocrat wrote: post #63

Is it right to call this UBI? In Norway we have supported artists economically since at least the mid 1800s. Playwrights like Henrik Ibsen got paid by the government after decisions by the Parliament. This is payment for contributing specifically to the cultural enrichment of the country while UBI as a system has no strings attached.

Same in Iceland. We have something called "artist salary" where every year a handful of artists are selected to essentially be paid by the government to practice their craft. Opinions are however divided as there's always this debate about who is deemed worthy and who is not. This sounds very similar, but I think they'll have the same problem; who decides what art is worthy of being supported?

> who decides what art is worthy of being supported?

If the number of entrants exceeds the number of allowances, they are randomly selected. It's written in the article.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#119

Post by rbanffy »

dexen wrote: post #112
kybernetyk wrote: post #62

Why artists and not open source developers? Arguably FOSS devs create far more value for society than some dingus painting stuff with his butt cheeks.

>why artists The unsaid part: "recipients are supposed to publicly laud the government": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_painter

Since the entrants are selected randomly, I'd say no.

Ireland has the sanest political system I've ever seen in person.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#120

Post by doovd »

richrichardsson wrote: post #46
chrismorgan wrote: post #15

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the…

I've never really looked too closely at the idea of UBI, although I like the concept. I always assumed that any money you earn would then be deducted from future payments. With completely arbitrary numbers, let's say UBI was 1000€/month and I earned 500€ in a particular month, then next month my UBI payment would be reduced by that amount. If I earned 1500€ my next UBI payment would be zero, but the excess 500€ would…

> I always assumed that any money you earn would then be deducted from future payments

Contrary to what everyone says in this thread, this is the crappy way welfare exists in the UK

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