Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

artforum.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 235 posts

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#91

Post by goblin89 »

pembrook wrote: post #25
chrismorgan wrote: post #15

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the…

Sounds basically like a grant program, not UBI. However, slapping the phrase UBI on your program while it’s trendy is a genius way to “rebrand” something most governments already do. Politicians are the best marketers.

A few times in the past 3–5 years I came across Europeans who would travel and do stuff like photography or filmmaking while being compensated by the government. I was told that those are programs where basically all you need is to be an unemployed artist. (Some of those people would also do remote software consulting or such, although I think that was bending the rules slightly.)

For a country that wants to start a similar program, mislabeling it (because of course it is not actually universal) as “UBI” could be strategic—make people comfortable with the term that could later be expanded to involve actual UBI with less controversy.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#92

Post by sofixa »

kybernetyk wrote: post #62

Why artists and not open source developers? Arguably FOSS devs create far more value for society than some dingus painting stuff with his butt cheeks.

Because art is easy to appreciate universally ( anyone can like music or a painting), and software is not. It's an abstract thing for most people.

I do think it'd be a great idea to have grants / subsidies / UBI for FOSS developers. The EU is slowly walking in that direction with donations and funding a big bounty programme for FOSS they directly use.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#93

Post by lopis »

kybernetyk wrote: post #62

Why artists and not open source developers? Arguably FOSS devs create far more value for society than some dingus painting stuff with his butt cheeks.

That's, of course, your personal opinion. Most dev work brings me no value. Doesn't mean it's not valuable, but maybe I prefer to see more paintings.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#94

Post by onion2k »

Ekaros wrote: post #60
onion2k wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be part-time but eventually they will get better and can start making money out of it, and if not then well it can just be their hobby right? Except that's not what actually happens. People working a full time job (or more than one job) don't have the time or energy to also be a part-time artist until they make it. This is especially true for people who have other responsibilities like raising children or car…

If their skills aren't marketable in free market, why should other people subsidise them? I would much rather the money to be spend on something actually productive or physical. And not wasted entirely on art...

If their skills aren't marketable in free market, why should other people subsidise them?

Lots of things that society has collectively decided are they would like to have aren't possible in a free market. Roads are a good example. If people had to buy their own roads you might have freeways but towns would be dirt tracks. Roads would be wildly different around the country. Signs wouldn't be unified by design. It'd be awful. The military is another example. If people actually had to buy military things in a free market you'd have a fragmented market of tiny militias and absolutely no national defence infrastructure. The list of things that are only possible to pay for in a socialized way is very long.

There's no reason why increasing the supply of art beyond the limited amount that the free market will provide isn't another thing that would make society better.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#97

Post by sputr »

We call this "systemic financing" and Slovenia has had it since it's independence from Yugoslavia in the 90s.

It's a stupendously bad idea. There are already hints of this:

> Currently at issue are eligibility and the process by which recipients will be selected.

If you allow politics to finance the arts, then soon the only art you have is the one preferred by the ruling politicians.

If your political option is ruling at the moment, this may not seem that bad - as happened in Slovenia, where the "left-ish" options rule for the most part.

The problem is when "the others" take over the government, as has happened in Slovenia. Then, suddenly, everyone looses their funding while it's being redirected to the groups preferred by the new government. And the longer since the last change, the more dependent everyone is on the "government handout" and the bigger the effect.

> The ministry has said there will be no means test and that the process will be noncompetitive. If the number of applicants exceeds the number of income awards available, selection will be randomized.

You may say, "but the system that they propose solves this problem". Yeah, sure. For now. Soon after implementation, the policitcal debate about "real artist" and "fake artists stealing money" will start, just like the one we have here. Rules will be amended to "stop people from stealing money with fake art" and BAM, you have politically set standards for what constitutes "art".

Don't get me wrong - I'm in the very small minority in Slovenia who does not support the system we have. But this may, or may not, have something to do with the fact that the only financing for arts (and NGOs!) are government grants, so those who do not agree with the system (and the people enforcing it) never even have a chance to get started. The fact that we've not known a different system for generations (since Yugoslavia, being a communist dictatorship, also had "systemic financing") does not help.

Just to add regarding the NGOs I mentioned: officially, 0.6% of the population is employed in the NGO sector. European average is ~6%. But our number includes ALL government established and funded art and science institutions (like museums and the like). We have no NGO sector. Which, by extension, also means we do not have non-establishment politics.

In short: don't do government guided systemic financing. Does not mean it's not a good idea in any form, but please do in a way that the population (via tax credits, tokens etc.) decides who to award the majority of the money to, not the politicians.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#98

Post by ploika »

inglor_cz wrote: post #54
usrbinbash wrote: post #52

> Martin emphasized the importance of aiding artists in continuing their work. “The minister is conscious of the value that this sector brings to all Irish citizens,” What about the work of health workers, delivery people, drivers, employees in supermarkets, cleaners, constructions workers, etc.?

They probably do not have as strong a lobby.

Several of those groups have much stronger lobbies in Ireland than artists do, I would argue.

Live music and theatres in particular have been almost totally shut down here since March 2020. I'm struggling to think of any other sector that has been so badly hit during the pandemic.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#100

Post by throwaway0a5e »

pydry wrote: post #73
dskloet wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrible way to implement UBI. It causes the dreaded welfare trap where people are incentivized to do nothing. UBI should be unconditional. This makes it much easier to implement, removes the stigma, and most importantly avoids the welfare trap. You want people who rely on welfare to be encouraged to become self sufficient, not trap them in dependence.

Welfare traps are a policy feature for company owners who employ a lot of people. It's a strong disincentive for employees who are trapped to ask for a raise. Nonetheless when they appear their presence is typically (naively) chalked up to simple incompetence.

>Welfare traps are a policy feature for company owners who employ a lot of people.

It's simpler than that. There's not even a need to speculate about outside meddling.

No bureaucrat or appointee ever got a promotion or got more resources at their disposal for getting people off of government services and shrinking the relevance of the program. If you start with the program serving 10k people budget negotiations, getting those job reqs, etc, etc. will be harder if the program is so good that next year there's only 9k people on it. There's a massive incentive to just not give a shit about giving people a bridge to actually get off of welfare because why would any organization actively give a shit about creating a pathway toward making itself less relevant.

Post reply on HN