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An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

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Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#351

Post by colinmhayes »

landemva wrote: post #289
colinmhayes wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take payments in crypto instead of cash.

That is crypto-to-crypto. Your earlier comment said there are dirty wallets. How does someone get dirty cash in to that dirty wallet? For example, which bank allows deposit of dirty cash so the bank account holder can then wire the funds to an exchange?

You can have a dirty wallet from crypto that you've gotten illegally. If you are a merchant on a darknet market your wallet is dirty. If you wrote malware and got someone to pay you a ransom you have a dirty wallet. There are basically an infinite number of ways to have a crypto address with significant holdings that the government has "frozen" so that it can't be converted to fiat. Of course there are other strategies for laundering crypto, this one has the added benefit of actually making money instead of losing it.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#352

Post by eric_cc »

catillac wrote: post #348
eric_cc wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your “buy low sell high” take is pretty short-sighted. For many, it’s a change in currency from fiat to digital. You on-ramp in but you don’t back out into fiat. You're speaking about a subset of crypto traders that go right back to fiat.

I assumed making money was your metric, but if the metric is “change in currency from fiat to digital” I would argue that after nearly fifteen years of little adoption for mainstream, lack of ability to use cryptocurrency for anything but black market goods and super niche products, and what seems like an utter chaotic ecosystem dominated by con artists, cryptocurrencies are a pretty abject failure on that metric as…

> lack of ability to use cryptocurrency

You can transact at any store that accepts credit cards with a crypto credit card.

There are countless uses for blockchains now from DeFi, gaming, social networks, NFTs, entertainment streaming, DAO’s and decentralized governance, and on and on the list goes.

I recommend you catch up to 2022 crypto if you don’t already know that.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#353

Post by heavyset_go »

benreesman wrote: post #94

Eh 20-ish years ago the shit happening on Island and Archipelago would blow most people’s minds. Undocumented, conditional, non-displayed order types. Routine wash trading. Shear-but-don’t skin multi-venue arbitrage. The ECNs were the Wild West. Smoke-filled dark pools. Island and Arca are NASDAQ and NYSE now. But Ben, US equities have intrinsic value unlike this BTC garbage! Well unless they pay no dividend, have du…

> But Ben, US equities have intrinsic value unlike this BTC garbage! Well unless they pay no dividend, have dual-class share structure, and IPO without a profitable quarter.

Should the company's assets be liquidated, shareholders are entitled to that value after creditors.

If BTC tanks, there is little value to extract from liquidation.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#354

Post by 01acheru »

eric_cc wrote: post #346
01acheru wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all I’m not seeing this advantage “beginning to vanish”. Even assuming it completely disappears we still need to solve: - energy inefficiency of BTC - extremely low number of transactions per unit of time - a currency lacking the possibility of reversing transfers is not compatible with most legal systems - full traceability of my wallet transactions open to the public - volatility And those are the first I…

Okay but the question was: what’s the bull case for $USD?

We started from your question “What properties does it have that make it superior to currencies like $BTC in your opinion?”.

Then you changed subject about being bullish when replying. So you must either decide: are we talking about currencies or about speculative assets?

There are no reasons to be bullish about currencies, that’s not their purpose.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#355

Post by somewhereoutth »

errantmind wrote: post #302
somewhereoutth wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I meant ponzai scheme. Marketplaces are where things with inherent value are exchanged. Crypto has zero inherent value - it serves only as a record of previous players in the scheme.

Gatekeeping 'value' yields no insights. Value is whatever people think it is and doesn't require any physical connection to reality, nor any rational mechanism.

I think we can ascribe an inherent value - as opposed to market price. When the inherent value is clearly and indisputably zero, but punters are handing over real cash, then you have a fraudulent scheme.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#356

Post by heavyset_go »

ravar wrote: post #180
ckastner wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. I'm just saying that the other process is much, much worse than that.

thats like, your opinion bro. In all seriousness I am ok with crypto punishing gamblers, eventually people will learn to stay away from it, or be forced to stay away from it because they have nothing left to gamble. I don't see how this is more morally repugnant than casinos which are legally accessible in most of the US.

> I don't see how this is more morally repugnant than casinos which are legally accessible in most of the US.

Gambling is heavily regulated in most of the US. It can be morally repugnant because retail investors are being swindled into making terrible "investments". Retail investors really shouldn't be exposed to that kind of manipulation and risk.

You can argue that they're stupid and deserve it, but some of these people have kids to feed and house, and when their house of cards comes falling down, innocent people will suffer.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#357

Post by 01acheru »

eric_cc wrote: post #350
squeaky-clean wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want a currency with a bull case. That means it discourages spending it in favor of holding it. I want a currency with an extremely slow bear case. Also my value of USD hasn't dropped 30% in the last month.

BTC didn’t drop in value did it? 1 BTC is worth 1 BTC. The fed manipulating the USD and affecting the trading pair of USD/BTC is probably what you’re referring to.

BTC value dropped against all fiat currencies after mining rigs shutting down in Kazakistan and a little bit after the Kosovo news, so yeah BTC value dropped.

In a longer span: BTC is down 33% against EUR in the last 3 months.

> 1 BTC is worth 1 BTC.

That’s tautological, so devoid of any information.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#358

Post by azemetre »

arcticbull wrote: post #210
benreesman wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a lot more faith in the IPO underwriting process than I do. They don’t call it a “pop” for nothing.

Companies are free to direct list without underwriters and even issue new shares in the process. I'm not sure what a "pop" (the idea that prices often go up on listing) has to do with anything. It generally means that the company underpriced its equity but by no means does this always happen. Are you referring to a greenshoe? There's some misinformation there too, but it serves a purpose, too. [1] [1] https://www.inv…

I think they may be referring to the "pop" some tech companies have gotten lately where they may have been purposely undervalued so when they IPO they get a nice 5-10% "boost" and good publicity when they open.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#359

Post by jimbob45 »

01acheru wrote: post #263
eric_cc wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advantage for $USD is already beginning to vanish. Assuming it does, are there any other reasons to be bullish $USD?

First of all I’m not seeing this advantage “beginning to vanish”. Even assuming it completely disappears we still need to solve: - energy inefficiency of BTC - extremely low number of transactions per unit of time - a currency lacking the possibility of reversing transfers is not compatible with most legal systems - full traceability of my wallet transactions open to the public - volatility And those are the first I…

Not to mention the centralization of much of the coinage of BTC/Ethereum in the cryptocurrency exchanges. The killer feature of BTC is the ability of the entire population to achieve consensus about who owns what and have ultimate faith in the whole process. Owning BTC through an exchange is antithetical to the whole concept of BTC.

It's questions like yours that never get answered when others are trying to sell me on cryptocurrencies. These are basic questions that must have answers before BTC would ever be able to operate as a currency at all, let alone the currency.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#360

Post by errantmind »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #355
errantmind wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gatekeeping 'value' yields no insights. Value is whatever people think it is and doesn't require any physical connection to reality, nor any rational mechanism.

I think we can ascribe an inherent value - as opposed to market price. When the inherent value is clearly and indisputably zero, but punters are handing over real cash, then you have a fraudulent scheme.

You have provided no definition of this 'inherent value' you claim to exist. You keep stating conclusions in absolute terms with nothing to back it up.
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