An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation • Hacker News Board

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#181

Post by sjtindell » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:19 PM UTC

kaashif wrote: post #152

benreesman wrote: post #94

Eh 20-ish years ago the shit happening on Island and Archipelago would blow most people’s minds. Undocumented, conditional, non-displayed order types. Routine wash trading. Shear-but-don’t skin multi-venue arbitrage. The ECNs were the Wild West. Smoke-filled dark pools. Island and Arca are NASDAQ and NYSE now. But Ben, US equities have intrinsic value unlike this BTC garbage! Well unless they pay no dividend, have du…

> Well unless they pay no dividend, have dual-class share structure, and IPO without a profitable quarter. What’s a share of SNAP entitle you to exactly? Ah right, you think someone will buy it for more. I think the idea would be like what happened to Apple: they eventually grew so much, became so successful, accumulated huge piles of cash bigger than they could possibly spend, that they had to start paying a dividen…

Do you consider running a poker table a “real business”? Assuming there were no addicts present, what about a casino? Is that “real”?

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#182

Post by landemva » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:19 PM UTC

pakitan wrote: post #161

benreesman wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MicrosoftDollars they issue to pay their employees seem to be getting them some talent!

Well, great then, they just need to apply the same strategy for their shareholders!

Crypto has this as a governance DAO with voting via the governance (sort of ownership) tokens. Lots of innovation happening.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#183

Post by R0b0t1 » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

mitchdoogle wrote: post #163

notch656a wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad to see people genuinely wanting to watch others lose wealth so they can relish in it.

It's always jealousy. People see someone they view as "undeserving" doing better than themselves and react with hatred.

You're not wrong but there's plenty of contemptuous cryptobros who got wealthy via luck and won't admit it.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#184

Post by preseinger » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

notch656a wrote: post #145

mbesto wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm not claiming anything about a currency being manipulated. I'm saying the idea that a currency in and of itself is being manipulated is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Currency manipulation, in the context of the OP's discussion, implies one currencies relation to another one, in this case USD and BTC. Federal interest rates affecting the value of your dollar making purchases for goods and services i…

I knew when I bought crypto it was being manipulated. I don't give a fuck, I use it as a medium of exchange usually dumping it within a few minutes of buying it in order to buy some goods online to avoid credit card fees (precious metals). It's true dollar is manipulated. It is true crypto is manipulated. It is true many people such as myself purely is it as a medium of exchange. Just like with dollars, I dump it as…

The definition of "manipulated" which allows "the dollar and BTC are both being manipulated" to resolve as true is so broad that it is effectively meaningless. The dollar is not being manipulated in the way that reasonable people understand the word to mean. BTC obviously is.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#185

Post by keymone » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

mwattsun wrote: post #171

keymone wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So like having a small block size or whatever it is, and a long synchronization time made sense in 2008, but, 2021, or fast forward 10 years, it's like, comically low. just shows how hopelessly moronic he is on this issue and how surface-level his understanding of what is valuable about bitcoin is.

In shudder to think of the stupid things I thought in 2008

guess what, satoshi made some prescient decisions designing bitcoin, with such level of complexity, that you in 2022 still don't understand them. to be fair, the (briefly) richest person in the world doesn't either.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#186

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

ravar wrote: post #180

ckastner wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. I'm just saying that the other process is much, much worse than that.

thats like, your opinion bro. In all seriousness I am ok with crypto punishing gamblers, eventually people will learn to stay away from it, or be forced to stay away from it because they have nothing left to gamble. I don't see how this is more morally repugnant than casinos which are legally accessible in most of the US.

It's more morally repugnant because it's much less transparent. Casinos are exploitative misery factories and I'd be happy to see them vanish forever. But they're at least carefully regulated to exploit people at an agreed-upon level and with all the rules known beforehand.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#187

Post by yokoprime » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:24 PM UTC

notch656a wrote: post #140

dmw_ng wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looming rate hikes combined with ever increasing correlation of Bitcoin to equities suggests you may even get your day this year.

It's sad to see people genuinely wanting to watch others lose wealth so they can relish in it.

Trying to spot the biggest fool is quite entertaining

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#188

Post by jrm4 » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:24 PM UTC

10x-dev wrote: post #139

alecst wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A counterpoint would be that what some call the intrinsic value is the expected future share price based on expected future revenues. There might or might not be future revenue for SNAP, but there is no revenue for a digital currency. But I do think digital currency has intrinsic value, in that for now, it affords you anonymity to commit crimes in a way that ordinary currency does not. I’m not happy about it, but thi…

How is digital currency, in general, anonymous? Bitcoin records all of your transactions, publicly, essentially forever. If at any point in time there is a way to tie your identity to _any_ of the transactions made in your lifetime, then all of your other transactions get deanonymized retroactively. Maybe you made a mistake, maybe a bug is introduced into the Bitcoin software, maybe the government passes a new law, e…

Right. I mean, basically you're as safe as your public-key/username. If you can make your wallet in some kind of very off grid way, the same way you'd have to use Tor; cash laptop, McDonald's wifi, etc.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#189

Post by landemva » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #159

skilled wrote: post #31

Interesting tidbit: "An aside on NFTs Because they’re “unique” objects, NFTs are a perfect vehicle for wash trading. You can easily ensure you only wash trade to yourself. The common scheme is to wash trade with yourself until some credible dunce buys the NFT from you at your manufactured “fair” value, leaving you to walk away with real money." It's such a stupidly simple idea it's actually brilliant.

This is also what makes NFTs great for money laundering. You can use the money from the dirty wallet to make the wash sales, increasing the value of your NFT while cleaning the money at the same time.

How do you get lots of actual dirty cash into a dirty wallet?

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#190

Post by eric_cc » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

ckastner wrote: post #136

wpietri wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly appreciate your experience and cynicism here. People who haven't worked in financial markets have a hard time appreciating how deep the muck can get. Which makes them especially valuable suckers for the unregulated markets.

> People who haven't worked in financial markets have a hard time appreciating how deep the muck can get. That's the main reason why I find the battle cry of "decentralization" so comically ironic. No government can control crypto, how awesome and empowering! When the truth is that the vast amount of control that we've seen develop in the past century (and especially in the past two decades) were just to protect peop…

> the truth is that the vast amount of control that we've seen develop in the past century (and especially in the past two decades) were just to protect people from said muck.

Think of the children!

Do you really believe the vast amount of centralized control is to protect the poor stupid people? I think this is an incredibly naive and gullible take. The vast amount of controls in place are to solidify power amongst the powerful.