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Teaching how to code is broken

neil.computer

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Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#31

Post by qsort »

habeebtc wrote: post #24
dboreham wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't taught that way?

When I was in school (it's been a while), we built super boring things that nobody cared about as our assignments. Various inventory systems, which you have to sort/search. That was a big challenge of mine in school. I wasn't that interested in the assignments, because I was building boring stuff that didn't really solve problems, let alone ones I cared about. I am pretty prolific in my career, and I'm not even what…

I partially agree, but how isn't the usual CS curriculum relevant for Sysadmins, DBAs, network engineers and the like?

What CS curriculum doesn't include networks, relational theory, hardware architecture, os architecture? How can anybody in those roles be successful without at least informally understanding the rudiments of big-O notation or without having some light scripting skills?

Certainly CS curricula could be improved, but a good one doesn't do too bad of a job at preparing you for technical roles IMO.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#32

Post by Jtsummers »

habeebtc wrote: post #24
dboreham wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't taught that way?

When I was in school (it's been a while), we built super boring things that nobody cared about as our assignments. Various inventory systems, which you have to sort/search. That was a big challenge of mine in school. I wasn't that interested in the assignments, because I was building boring stuff that didn't really solve problems, let alone ones I cared about. I am pretty prolific in my career, and I'm not even what…

In the US, the kind of programming most immediately useful for sysadmins and DBAs, and other operations fields, are, or were, typically present in community colleges and technical colleges, not university programs (where CS dominates, or "programming for engineers/statistics" basic classes). At least that was the case 10+ years ago, have they stopped teaching those classes and providing certifications/associates degrees appropriate to those fields?

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#33

Post by stingraycharles »

foxfluff wrote: post #9
travisd wrote: post #5

I have opinions™, but mostly agree with this article. Most intro coding classes and course materials read more like a glossary than a lesson. This contributes (rather directly) to the failure to retain a diverse student base in intro CS program. We've gotten a lot better at recruiting CS students from underrepresented groups (women and BIPOC chiefly), but numbers drop off quickly[1]. Studies in math education have sh…

Meanwhile my sister's first programming course at university involved making a game using an existing bespoke framework. It mostly involved adding graphics and a few methods & some properties to objects (which already had physics etc. implemented) in an otherwise more or less done project base. I don't know about retaining or intimidation but I feel like it was way too much "just fill in the gaps, look you have a cha…

> Meanwhile my sister's first programming course at university involved making a game using an existing bespoke framework.

I had exactly the same exercise on my first day on uni, we had to take some robot maze pathfinder game and adjust the algorithm a bit.

As someone who had been writing code for over a decade at that point (but who was unfamiliar with Java), I still remember it was intimidating.

I cannot imagine how it must have felt for people without prior coding experience.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#34

Post by cloverich »

andrewzah wrote: post #28
rabuse wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've attempted to teach multiple family members/friends over the years "how to code", and they give up almost immediately. They "just don't get it", and I'd argue one needs to seriously find enjoyment in building things, and knowing how long things can take, to get started.

That's like most hobbies/careers. People want to learn the guitar|piano|violin, until they realize the amount of work it takes. People want to get fit and jacked, until they realize the amount of work it takes. People want to be a lawyer/doctor/engineer, until they realize the amount of work it takes. Or they realize that they just don't really like it. Programming isn't any different. One needs a particular mindset,…

Only caveat is, and this is where I feel bad, if the person hasn't learned something new in a very long time, they forget what it feels like to change, or even become convinced that they can't. It can be hard to convince someone that no, you don't need to have aptitude or be any good at it after a few days, weeks, even months. You just need to keep doing it. As long as the goal is realistic, you'll succeed. Whether you are more or less "talented" than someone else affects the timeline (a little) but you are going to the same place (again, realistic goals).

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#35

Post by imbnwa »

As a self-taught, highly agree almost all intro material I was coming upon back in 2013/14/15 was basically just a reference throwing concepts at you without a context that was incrementally increasing in complexity to guide you. I was one for trivia, so this was fine to a certain extent, but he's dead right, the job is not writing code (as much as the JIRA Industrial Complex would like to make it out to be), the job is thinking and problem-solving.

I only began to understand the thinking needed for doing my job after after mentoring by a consultant who fully grasped and could communicate this, where all the other in-house seniors were too stuck in the Complex for whatever reason to transmit this clearly (likely related to the near-unihibited freedom the consultant had relative to the in-house seniors).

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#36

Post by lawl »

__mharrison__ wrote: post #19

(Disclosure: I do corporate training (Python and Data Science) for a living.) I generally don't teach coding to newbies, so a lot of the coding I teach is correcting poor mental models and teaching features (somewhat) unique (or different) in Python. My best Pandas courses have been when the client opts to use their data for the course (instead of my canned data). The students are already subject matter experts with…

I always thought the best way to learn programming is to find a program you want to create, and then figure out how to make that happen.

This is still how i learn (most effectively) today. If i want to learn a new language or something, i write something that i always wanted to write in it anyways. That way it doesn't get boring.

I think what you're describing might be similar in that canned-data is not interesting.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#37

Post by andrewzah »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #22
imglorp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment covered several hot topics. 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens. 2. CS is part coding, part science of algorithms, and part software engineering. We have to quit intertwingling all terms into the catchall "CS" b…

> 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens. Girls in STEM =/= Girls becoming professional programmers. There are plenty of girls in STEM fields such as medicine, biology, geology, physics, Math, civil engineering... The fact that…

Sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day isn't a gendered thing.

There is nothing about computer science or programming that is gender specific. It, ideally, should sit around 50-50, ±5%. So yes, it is a problem that it so heavily skews male.

As to why, it's multi-faceted cultural issue, with how our society treats boys and girls starting from birth. In other words, a pipeline issue.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#38

Post by systemvoltage »

qsort wrote: post #25
teeceetime2 wrote: post #18

An "Intro to Logic" (Pseudocode) class was required at my university before you could move on to any of the actual programming courses. It was a glorified linear programming course - think BASIC or BATCH with a bunch of jumps and goto's.

This is unironically a good idea. The main stumbling block isn't programming per se, it's breaking down a conceptual, informal idea of what you have to do in a formal language. It matters very little whether it's linear programs, ASM instructions, LISP forms or C++ classes.

On the other hand, our University course started with half-baked explanation of what "public static void main" means (Java entry point) on the first day. It was horrible and no one understand anything until a few classes later we go to the meat of making/building stuff.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#39

Post by friendlydog »

Teaching everyone the same way is wrong. Everyone has different learning styles, education and life experience.

If there is a large enough market share for a topic grouping like learners together can be very efficient.

Creating a one sized fits most solution is the default setting for many educators and yields an "okay" result.

Allowing learning at your own pace, with community support and many styles of consumable content will give a excellent result for self motivated individuals.

Students who are not motivated or need help with motivation can be handled differently.

Edit:

Learning styles has a broad meaning more than just the "I'm a visual learner."

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#40

Post by throw_m239339 »

andrewzah wrote: post #37
throw_m239339 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens. Girls in STEM =/= Girls becoming professional programmers. There are plenty of girls in STEM fields such as medicine, biology, geology, physics, Math, civil engineering... The fact that…

Sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day isn't a gendered thing. There is nothing about computer science or programming that is gender specific. It, ideally, should sit around 50-50, ±5%. So yes, it is a problem that it so heavily skews male. As to why, it's multi-faceted cultural issue, with how our society treats boys and girls starting from birth. In other words, a pipeline issue.

I never said or implied that programming was sexed, I told the parent that just because they are fewer female developers doesn't mean the sex imbalance is the same or even skewed heavily toward males in every STEM discipline.
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