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Teaching how to code is broken

neil.computer

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Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#21

Post by optymizer »

I'm a huge fan of Nature of Code and I agree that it's a wonderful book, but I don't think it's a book for people who are beginners (i.e. they're learning how to code). Daniel Shiffman has a ton of resources which are better suited for people who want to learn how to code - Learning Processing, the Coding Train channel, etc.

Motivation is the primary hurdle when teaching folks how to code. Having a goal to accomplish keeps them motivated, especially if there's feedback early - games, robots are good starting points.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#22

Post by throw_m239339 »

imglorp wrote: post #13
travisd wrote: post #5

I have opinions™, but mostly agree with this article. Most intro coding classes and course materials read more like a glossary than a lesson. This contributes (rather directly) to the failure to retain a diverse student base in intro CS program. We've gotten a lot better at recruiting CS students from underrepresented groups (women and BIPOC chiefly), but numbers drop off quickly[1]. Studies in math education have sh…

This comment covered several hot topics. 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens. 2. CS is part coding, part science of algorithms, and part software engineering. We have to quit intertwingling all terms into the catchall "CS" b…

> 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens.

Girls in STEM =/= Girls becoming professional programmers.

There are plenty of girls in STEM fields such as medicine, biology, geology, physics, Math, civil engineering...

The fact that not a lot of them want to be forced to sit before a computer 10 hours a day for the rest of their lives certainly isn't an issue if you asks me...

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#23

Post by rabuse »

bob1029 wrote: post #17

I have always struggled with how to advise my friends & family on this path of learning. It seems like everyone wants to be a WFH developer these days, but I don't know how to enable them to succeed on that path. "Go build something you want to build!" is something I keep reiterating (as does this article). But most don't seem to be interested in that for whatever reason (presumably because its fucking hard). Maybe I…

I've attempted to teach multiple family members/friends over the years "how to code", and they give up almost immediately. They "just don't get it", and I'd argue one needs to seriously find enjoyment in building things, and knowing how long things can take, to get started.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#24

Post by habeebtc »

dboreham wrote: post #10
enchiridion wrote: post #4

IMO coding should be taught like a trade. Take woodworking for example. Sure you spend some time learning to make straight cuts etc, but you quickly move to building thing with a lot of feedback.

It isn't taught that way?

When I was in school (it's been a while), we built super boring things that nobody cared about as our assignments. Various inventory systems, which you have to sort/search.

That was a big challenge of mine in school. I wasn't that interested in the assignments, because I was building boring stuff that didn't really solve problems, let alone ones I cared about.

I am pretty prolific in my career, and I'm not even what you would call a hardcore dev. Which brings me to my next gripe with CS curriculum: It is geared towards training hardcore devs and not any other type of engineer.

The types of coders we should have some sort of curriculum for, which we to this day mostly do not:

-SRE's -Ops people -Support people -PM's -Accountants/General finance -DBA's -SysAdmins -Network engineers -Cloud engineers

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#25

Post by qsort »

teeceetime2 wrote: post #18

An "Intro to Logic" (Pseudocode) class was required at my university before you could move on to any of the actual programming courses. It was a glorified linear programming course - think BASIC or BATCH with a bunch of jumps and goto's.

This is unironically a good idea. The main stumbling block isn't programming per se, it's breaking down a conceptual, informal idea of what you have to do in a formal language.

It matters very little whether it's linear programs, ASM instructions, LISP forms or C++ classes.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#26

Post by cloogshicer »

dboreham wrote: post #11

Article seems to be complaining about the typical chapter layout for a reference book on a given programming language. Such books aren't intended to teach coding. The intended audience is those who already understand how to code, in a different language.

From my experience, many beginner books are structured in a similar way.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#27

Post by freebreakfast »

travisd wrote: post #5

I have opinions™, but mostly agree with this article. Most intro coding classes and course materials read more like a glossary than a lesson. This contributes (rather directly) to the failure to retain a diverse student base in intro CS program. We've gotten a lot better at recruiting CS students from underrepresented groups (women and BIPOC chiefly), but numbers drop off quickly[1]. Studies in math education have sh…

Do you know of any comparative studies with other countries? Or is this a predominately US/Canada issue?

For example, do BIPOC students in Botswana drop out at similar rates? Do non-BIPOC students in Taiwan experience similar drop out rates? What are the classes and course materials like in these countries in comparison to the US/Canada?

What about drop out numbers from international students? For example, do Polish women studying CS at American universities drop out at the same rate as American women? For those who do drop out, do they drop out for the same reasons?

If we want to get to the root of the problem we need both more breadth and more depth in our understanding. Too often we stop at the men/women (in America) or BIPOC/non-BIPOC (in America) divides, and then provide generalized solutions which have very limit impact.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#28

Post by andrewzah »

rabuse wrote: post #23
bob1029 wrote: post #17

I have always struggled with how to advise my friends & family on this path of learning. It seems like everyone wants to be a WFH developer these days, but I don't know how to enable them to succeed on that path. "Go build something you want to build!" is something I keep reiterating (as does this article). But most don't seem to be interested in that for whatever reason (presumably because its fucking hard). Maybe I…

I've attempted to teach multiple family members/friends over the years "how to code", and they give up almost immediately. They "just don't get it", and I'd argue one needs to seriously find enjoyment in building things, and knowing how long things can take, to get started.

That's like most hobbies/careers.

People want to learn the guitar|piano|violin, until they realize the amount of work it takes.

People want to get fit and jacked, until they realize the amount of work it takes.

People want to be a lawyer/doctor/engineer, until they realize the amount of work it takes.

Or they realize that they just don't really like it.

Programming isn't any different. One needs a particular mindset, and a level of patience to deal with debugging. It's not for everyone, and that's fine.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#29

Post by wodenokoto »

optymizer wrote: post #21

I'm a huge fan of Nature of Code and I agree that it's a wonderful book, but I don't think it's a book for people who are beginners (i.e. they're learning how to code). Daniel Shiffman has a ton of resources which are better suited for people who want to learn how to code - Learning Processing, the Coding Train channel, etc. Motivation is the primary hurdle when teaching folks how to code. Having a goal to accomplish…

From the Nature Of Code, chapter 1:

> If you’ve read any of the introductory Processing textbooks or taken a class on programming with Processing (and hopefully you’ve done one of these things to help prepare you for this book)

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a beginner book at all.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#30

Post by cloverich »

bob1029 wrote: post #17

I have always struggled with how to advise my friends & family on this path of learning. It seems like everyone wants to be a WFH developer these days, but I don't know how to enable them to succeed on that path. "Go build something you want to build!" is something I keep reiterating (as does this article). But most don't seem to be interested in that for whatever reason (presumably because its fucking hard). Maybe I…

You can show people the door, but they have to walk through it. I learned programming, and a bunch of other stuff later in life (now 39). They all have the same process - you decide you want to do it, and you start doing it. You will absolutely fail hard and regularly at it. You'll pick the wrong course or book or language or whatever, but that's all part of the process. If people see you doing the work and are able, they'll help you out (ideally, not IME).

In a way its kind of nice to get started with something new, because you don't need a plan at first. You just start kind of doing it, and then when you take breaks, you figure out the plan. Its amazing how quickly you can pick things up once you get into the habit of doing it very regularly. That initial hump is always, ALWAYS a huge pain, but there's no escaping it. Failing and flailing for that initial period is how you learn, not how you fail.

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