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Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

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Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#241

Post by dale_glass »

ls15 wrote: post #235
dale_glass wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to international travel! Countries are sovereign entities and decide who gets through the borders. For any international gathering, there's going to be people who have a hard time making it through, or are unable. I was once invited by a company to an US based developer meeting, and couldn't make it because the company didn't realize I needed a visa, and it's absolutely impossible to get one in two weeks barr…

I think that an international sports event in a country that is too picky has no chance to stay relevant, especially if that means that it filters out some of the best athletes.

Probably, yeah. I don't think that makes much difference in the end.

While I don't know much about Australia, I'm pretty sure a tennis tournament is not their biggest priority right now.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#242

Post by alkonaut »

ls15 wrote: post #230
alkonaut wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? I think that's not very good math Because that's one of the easiest arguments to dispel. No one should be avoiding the vaccine for that reason. Not even those who had the disease once or twice already.

> What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. Politicians are no medical doctors and they should have no power to pr…

> No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure.

And I absolutely agree. Apart from specific situations (e.g healthcare workers) no one should be required to get the vaccine.

But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life.

> I can see, how the vaccine may be utterly pointless for Djokovic, while it may be very important for others.

I don’t think it’s pointless. Protection from vaccine helps even in the recovered, healthy and young. But whether he should get it or not isn’t really relevant, what’s relevant is that Australia required it and they can’t exempt him due to past infection (apparently).

Also, one shouldn’t let an antivaxer free from criticism just because he got the disease and no longer feels he needs the vaccine. He was against it to begin with.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#243

Post by ls15 »

dale_glass wrote: post #241
ls15 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that an international sports event in a country that is too picky has no chance to stay relevant, especially if that means that it filters out some of the best athletes.

Probably, yeah. I don't think that makes much difference in the end. While I don't know much about Australia, I'm pretty sure a tennis tournament is not their biggest priority right now.

One more reason to cancel it, rather than pushing it under unfair conditions.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#244

Post by alkonaut »

ls15 wrote: post #230
alkonaut wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? I think that's not very good math Because that's one of the easiest arguments to dispel. No one should be avoiding the vaccine for that reason. Not even those who had the disease once or twice already.

> What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. Politicians are no medical doctors and they should have no power to pr…

> No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure.

And I absolutely agree. Apart from specific situations (e.g healthcare workers) no one should be required to get the vaccine.

But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life.

Remember that vaccines were always mandated for travel, going to university etc.

> I can see, how the vaccine may be utterly pointless for Djokovic, while it may be very important for others.

I don’t think it’s pointless. Protection from vaccine helps even in the recovered, healthy and young. But whether he should get it or not isn’t really relevant, what’s relevant is that Australia required it and they can’t exempt him due to past infection (apparently).

Also, one shouldn’t let an antivaxer free from criticism just because he got the disease and no longer feels he needs the vaccine. He was against it to begin with.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#245

Post by dale_glass »

ls15 wrote: post #243
dale_glass wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably, yeah. I don't think that makes much difference in the end. While I don't know much about Australia, I'm pretty sure a tennis tournament is not their biggest priority right now.

One more reason to cancel it, rather than pushing it under unfair conditions.

Why unfair conditions? It's just Djokovic being stupid.

Vaccination has long been a requirement for admission into countries, and Covid isn't a new event either. The only new things going on here is Djovokic being public about it, and some minor bureaucratic issues, other than that it's very much business as usual.

But in any case I don't have an opinion on the tournament, I don't watch those anyway. It's up to them to figure out whether this is worth cancelling things over.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#246

Post by rblatz »

dmarcos wrote: post #233
scarab92 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics aside, the entry requirements for Australia explicitly require full vaccination with a WHO approved vaccine or a valid medical exemption. Prior infection is explicitly not sufficient for an exemption. Djokovic did not meet the entry requirements, he knew he did not meet the entry rquirents, but he boarded the plane anyway. The earlier visa cancellation was overturned on procedural grounds only. This minister…

He had followed all the rules apparently. He had been granted an exception reviewed by two independent panels as required by Australian authorities. Decision backed by the Victorian Dep. of Health. The process is blind so supposedly the authorities didn’t know it was Djokovic behind the application. He boarded the plane with the papers in order: https://www.tennis365.com/australian-open/tennis-australia-n...

The state of Victoria doesn’t set the rules for who can come into the country. They have no authority to grant entry to the country.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#247

Post by rblatz »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #155
askvictor wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the issue of the immigration department seemingly not properly scrutinizing the application, as well as Djokovic lying on the application forms. But most likely this is all an intentionally concocted distraction from government's failings in the current outbreak.

So how did he win his first court challenge? Why aren't those institutions being scrutinized? Where's the proof he faked his documents and why isn't that alone cause for Australia's institutions to not have issued a visa? Why did it take a last-minute act from a minister to revoke his visa?

Because of a minor procedural misstep. Had they waited an additional hour, they would have been in the clear.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#248

Post by rblatz »

ls15 wrote: post #231
DonHopkins wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also runs the risk of being stabbed on the court during a match by a deranged fan of his opponent like Monica Seles was, or taking an errant serve directly in the groin then getting knocked backwards and striking his head on the hardcourt surface like Dick Wertheim did. So what? Tennis is a dangerous sport. Get used to it. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/tennis-star-moni... https://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

What would you think about mandatory tennis then?

For players competing in the Australian Open? I’m for it.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#249

Post by ls15 »

alkonaut wrote: post #242
ls15 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. Politicians are no medical doctors and they should have no power to pr…

> No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. And I absolutely agree. Apart from specific situations (e.g healthcare workers) no one should be required to get the vaccine. But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very speci…

> But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life.

I don't think that makes sense. If you cannot see your family again without vaccination, that is a clear mandate to me. If it is not based on clear scientific evidence that shows that there was no better option, then the mandate is arbitrary. Arbitrary mandates are tyrannical.

If Djokovic only has the choice between getting vaccinated or to give up his title, and if that mandated choice was not justified on a scientific basis, then that mandate was arbitrary and hence tyrannical.

> Also, one shouldn’t let an antivaxer free from criticism just because he got the disease and no longer feels he needs the vaccine. He was against it to begin with.

I think what we are experiencing right now, goes way beyond criticism. Instead of demonizing people with a certain belief (and treating rational critics as collateral), people should try much harder to demonstrate the benefits of the vaccine in an intellectually honest way. And they should be brutally honest regarding side effects. This is almost not happening, as far as I can see.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#250

Post by ls15 »

dale_glass wrote: post #245
ls15 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One more reason to cancel it, rather than pushing it under unfair conditions.

Why unfair conditions? It's just Djokovic being stupid. Vaccination has long been a requirement for admission into countries, and Covid isn't a new event either. The only new things going on here is Djovokic being public about it, and some minor bureaucratic issues, other than that it's very much business as usual. But in any case I don't have an opinion on the tournament, I don't watch those anyway. It's up to them…

I asked multiple people in this thread, what the scientific argument is for mandating that Djokovic gets vaccinated before being able to participate, given his specific situation and what we know about vaccine efficacy (especially since Omicron) and side effects (especially in his cohort) to this date. Nobody was able to answer this question sufficiently so far.

If there is no sufficient scientific basis for such a mandate, it is arbitrary. Arbitrary mandates are not only unfair, but also tyrannical.

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