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Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

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Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#71

Post by aaomidi »

_8j50 wrote: post #31

Yes keep your mouth shut. I have the opposite problem of doing too much but people who get bothered about other people's laziness are my pet peeve. Unless you are a manager, managing people is not your responsibility. If you do well and offer your support to get them to where they need to be, you are doing your best, take the nice paycheck home and enjoy! I have no idea what people are going through or what they brin…

Basically don't police your coworkers for the sake of your company.

The only time you should step in is to literally save someone from being actively harmed.

E.g. Hateful comments by some coworker, etc.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#72

Post by BoorishBears »

bko wrote: post #67
BoorishBears wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do you draw the line? Embezzling money. And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". You can effortlessly do the same for someone slacking, as the comment you replied to did. > Most managers would expect junior team membe…

> And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100. It's legally different,…

> If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house

The difference is it's your house and the scope of work is completely defined by you. It's not complicated.

- If they don't clean because they're sick, you're the one they tell.

- If they didn't clean because they were busy unclogging the toilet, you're the one who should know.

- If they didn't clean because they're waiting on a mold removal treatment, you're the one who should know.

You rarely have the whole picture in a work environment between HR, layers of supervisors, differing titles with differing scope of work....

-

And to the rest of your comment, I'm a tech lead with direct reports. I cannot imagine what kind of manager you have to be dealing with for them to take exception with quality insights such as "I keep getting blocked on X by Y" vs vague claims of "doing nothing and obfuscating".

After all, the end result is strictly better for everyone involved:

- you now have something actionable to bring to the "slacking" coworker, HR, and/or their skip level

- the blocked coworker has now communicated the fact they were blocked and you can work on recovery from that

- you can better establish patterns if this is an intermittent problem...

Sometimes bringing form to intangibles is a big part of your job, but if we're saying someone is literally doing nothing for a year... in any half-functional organization that should result in tangible, actionable blockages.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#73

Post by BoorishBears »

ratg13 wrote: post #55
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #27

> " Is there any scenario in which this makes sense for me to mention something to my manager or should I just keep my mouth shut? " The only thing you should bring up to your manager is if the person is not meeting their commitments in a way that impacts you meeting your own commitments; you do want the responsibility for that to land where it should. Even then, do it in a non-accusatory way. Beyond that, it's just…

There is a saying that goes, "the fastest way to demotivate a good employee is to allow them to watch you tolerate a bad one" Not all managers are aware of this. Everything you say is true, however, I have also witnessed first hand this sort of thing drain a company of talent. It's only after everyone else leaves and maybe you leave yourself where you start to question whether watching the whole company lose it's tal…

I have to ask, have your bad employees not resulted in issues for others?

People seem to be misunderstanding, this isn't about being scared to tattle or something. No one is saying keep quiet while someone harms the team...

What they're saying is: Your feedback should be based on harm, not just a gut feeling. I've never seen a team where someone could do 0 work and not create actionable blockages of work that you'd be able to bring up.

-

And honestly, part of me is starting to wonder if that's the issue... if you're on a team where someone also on that team (not an individual contributor) can do 0 work and not block anyone and not affect any deliverables, then that sounds like a fundamentally dysfunctional org.

The problem isn't even your manager tolerating them, the role shouldn't exist. That kind of org tends to bleed talent as people realize it's not rarely an isolated issue and they're part of a pretty dysfunctional system.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#74

Post by betwixthewires »

Is it affecting you? Do you have to pick up slack for this person, or are your departmental goals being hindered? If not, why do you care?

I got someone fired once. He didn't do anything, the few things he would do he would mangle up, and he was seriously holding back departmental goals. The boss wanted to fire him but didn't have the nerve, so I helped him find the nerve. Immediately after, I took up a project he was in charge of and turned it into a real boon for the team, it built out the department basically and took it from being a liability to helping improve products substantially.

It's a delicate thing though. Are you ruining someone's life? If they don't care enough should you care? Will coworkers stop trusting you? Does your boss care about it, and if not, will saying something blow up in your face? Is your product bullshit? Does your org have a culture of performing well, taking pride in it, encouragement and adequate compensation?

Again, to reiterate, if it's got nothing to do with you, mind your own business, but if it affects you directly, then weigh the potential outcomes.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#76

Post by datenarsch »

bko wrote: post #67
BoorishBears wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do you draw the line? Embezzling money. And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". You can effortlessly do the same for someone slacking, as the comment you replied to did. > Most managers would expect junior team membe…

> And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100. It's legally different,…

> If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100.

It is not OP's house though. He is just another employee, so it's none of his business to worry about this. Your argument sounds just like an excuse to morally justify snitching on co-workers.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#77

Post by bko »

BoorishBears wrote: post #72
bko wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100. It's legally different,…

> If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house The difference is it's your house and the scope of work is completely defined by you. It's not complicated. - If they don't clean because they're sick, you're the one they tell. - If they didn't clean because they were busy unclogging the toilet, you're the one who should know. - If they didn't clean because they're waiting…

> And to the rest of your comment, I'm a tech lead with direct reports.

Oof, so you'd be cool with people on your team not working?

> I cannot imagine what kind of manager you have to be dealing with for them to take exception with quality insights such as "I keep getting blocked on X by Y" vs vague claims of "doing nothing and obfuscating".

I like to work on teams that are effective where things get done. It is incredibly demoralizing working with sub-par team members, not even to mention people that go out of their way to not do work. I wouldn't want to work on such a team and I wouldn't want to manage such a team. It builds a toxic environment. My worst times in my career where was when I was on a team that was not really doing anything and no one was working.

I guess I'm just more communicative. I would want junior people on my team to feel comfortable to bring up any issues or things that they notice. Because I know if you have even one toxic member on your team, one that doesn't pull their weight or put in any effort, it can ruin the whole team and eventually the organization if those people are allowed to stay.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#78

Post by bko »

datenarsch wrote: post #76
bko wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100. It's legally different,…

> If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100. It is not OP's house though. He is just another employee, so it's none of his business to worry about this. Your argument sounds just like an excuse to morally justify snitching on co-workers.

If someone paid me to clean their house and the person I'm with starts stealing, I I would not be okay with it either. I would say something if I saw someone getting pick-pocketed or call the police if someone is being mugged. Theft is theft and its wrong. If I have a chance to easily address an injustice I will certainly consider it. This moral relativism has really gone overboard.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#79

Post by ncmncm »

edmundsauto wrote: post #62
ncmncm wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "which is more likely" principle applies: is it more likely you will get a raise, or that the manager gets it? You were being a busybody, but the manager was doing their assigned work.

There are also many other possible outcomes. Even if it's less likely that the manager would side with OP, it doesn't mean "approaches 0", as you stated previously. Additionally, even if the manager doesn't address it, it could end up being a positive. Instead of "which is more likely", what really matters is the value of the outcome. I'm the kind of person that I would rather know whether my manager cares at all, so…

"Which is more likely?" is a hint that one choice obviously has probability near 1, and the other as near zero as makes no difference.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#80

Post by cosmotic »

I once compiled a load of data that I consistently close more tickets, close more story points, commit more lines of code, more number of commits, etc compared to my coworkers with the same or similar title. I was laid off a few weeks later because my "goals were not the same as the company's". If you want to keep your job, don't bring it up. If you think you deserve better, find a new employer.
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