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Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

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191–200 of 408 posts

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#191
post #119
post #32

Nice, exactly what Linux needs the most - another desktop environment! Sarcasm aside, it does look pretty good. But between indistinguishable window title bars and yet another settings app (wanna bet it will miss some config so users wil still need to run one of the others?), I think I'll pass. As far as I'm concerned this problem was solved ages ago, so I simply don't understand why the designers keep mucking with i…

It "looks" good because so far all it is, is recreating GNOME running in PopOS while using the Rust GTK4 bindings.

Actually, it looks good in part because it is styled with CSS which is not true of GNOME or PopOS.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing GTK4 apps sucks, at least in Rust. They removed so many idiomatic ways to build apps, and all you're left with is a shitty component system that forces you to write incomprehensible UI layout code instead of leaving it to JSON/XML languages that are much better suited to the process. In any case, gtk-rs's bindings after 9.0.0 are hardly usable, and require me to re-write entire apps just to get them to launch…

Sounds like you want high level bindings, instead of gtk-rs. Have you tried relm4? > and additions like libadwaita has made GTK unusable for many Could you expand on that?

> Sounds like you want high level bindings, instead of gtk-rs. Have you tried relm4?

No, because as of 9.0.0 it was perfectly capable of building ergonomic UIs and works with external tools like Glade. It used to have plenty of features, now it does not.

I haven't tried relm4 because I'm not going to write any apps for GTK4 while it's still broken (egregious text rendering issues, assistive tools like Cambalanche are completely unfinished and unusable in production, inconsistent compositor blocking, etc.)

Plus, relm still doesn't fix the issue of how horrible it is to write GTK code inside a language as restrictive as Rust. With previous versions of gtk-rs you could at least circumvent that by drawing a definitive line between GUI code, builder code, and functional code (what is this, the future?), but now it's all been homogenized into .rs files and endless method calls. What a great development experience! [/s]

> Could you expand on that?

libadwaita has done nothing but further fracture the Linux landscape while pushing the onus onto me, the developer, to re-write the app to look native on other systems. On GTK2 and 3, I could write once, deliver to any platform and have it look as native as any other system utility. It's flexibility is what gave it it's value, since it was mostly just an open-source widget standard that could be used on any system you please. Unfortunately, now that the GNOME team has become the primary development leader of the GTK project, and projects like libadwaita do more harm than good for the desktop userspace as a whole. It provides me basically no value as a developer, and all of the "muh accessibility" and "muh dependability" arguments are total bunk. GTK3 was arguably more accessible since people with vision impairments could activate high-contrast or complimentary stylesheets that enabled them to... actually use the device. Nowadays, my only option is to assimilate into their brown blob UI or get thrown out for being "wrong". Does that seem like Linux to you?

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the battle over desktop environment supremacy leaves desktop Linux less compelling overall. There is so much choice that it's paralyzing and new users constantly second guess themselves. You have thousands of developers doing their own thing rather than working together to make mainstream choices like Gnome more viable.

Gnome doesn't want thousands of developers implementing their own visions for their projects and others don't want to donate their time to implementing gnomes vision. The proper thing for them all to do is all implement their own visions and people to use or work on what they please. Nobody asks why Tesla, Ford, and Toyota are wasting everyone's resources by being different company. Nobody suggests having different c…

> Gnome doesn't want thousands of developers implementing their own visions for their projects and others don't want to donate their time to implementing gnomes vision.

This is definitely looking more-and-more like the case. The GNOME team's insistence on cutting people out of their workflow has left them with less contributors... which leaves them with a worse desktop and a roadmap that's being pushed further-and-further back. Every GNOME contributor you meet will try to deny it, but it really has come to a boiling point over the last few months. There have been so many feature cuts, unaddressed issues, internal hostility and asinine workarounds (text is broken on native apps, so ship with Flatpak until we get it fixed! wait, Flatpak has more issues?) that I really struggle to have any respect for their leadership now. They're throwing out pieces of the plane to get it off the runway, and the complete lack of communication combined with their internal holier-than-thou social ethics has turned a transparent, thriving community of users into a miasma of apologists, skeptics and people who have never tried anything else.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the battle over desktop environment supremacy leaves desktop Linux less compelling overall. There is so much choice that it's paralyzing and new users constantly second guess themselves. You have thousands of developers doing their own thing rather than working together to make mainstream choices like Gnome more viable.

Gnome doesn't want thousands of developers implementing their own visions for their projects and others don't want to donate their time to implementing gnomes vision. The proper thing for them all to do is all implement their own visions and people to use or work on what they please. Nobody asks why Tesla, Ford, and Toyota are wasting everyone's resources by being different company. Nobody suggests having different c…

I understand. Tesla, Ford, and Toyota all have cars that work though. They all work so well you can basically swap any of them out and the user doesn't have to change anything. The user can pick any of those cars and do well.

I'm not talking about cars though, I'm talking about Linux not getting a lot of traction on desktop because of too much choice. The mainstream environments are often not viable for somebody trying to switch. We can ignore it and create a dozen more distros and environments but this pollutes the Linux landscape even further.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#195
post #91

I know we developers love our languages. But I'm always skeptical when underlying language choice is featured prominently as a selling point for any new project. It tells me, this is a technology-first, users-second enthusiast project. And thus, I'll be surprised if it tackles the deepest issues users need solved. That doesn't mean it isn't cool as a proof of concept for a new or popular language. It just makes me qu…

> But I'm always skeptical when underlying language choice is featured prominently as a selling point for any new project. > It tells me, this is a technology-first, users-second enthusiast project. > And thus, I'll be surprised if it tackles the deepest issues users need solved. Some of the deepest issues that users need solved are ones that Rust was designed to solve at the language and compiler level. 1. System st…

> It's like buying a Toyota, you know from the brand alone that you're getting a certain baseline level of reliability, maintainability, durability, and longevity. Rust is like the Toyota of programming languages - it can produce many different types of cars/programs, but they're all guaranteed to come with a baseline level of assurance, and to eliminate common classes of problems that degrade the end-user experience.

It's possible to make buggy, slow, crappy software in any language. Rust is no exception. Nobody should derive any confidence from the language a product is written in.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#196
post #91

I know we developers love our languages. But I'm always skeptical when underlying language choice is featured prominently as a selling point for any new project. It tells me, this is a technology-first, users-second enthusiast project. And thus, I'll be surprised if it tackles the deepest issues users need solved. That doesn't mean it isn't cool as a proof of concept for a new or popular language. It just makes me qu…

> But I'm always skeptical when underlying language choice is featured prominently as a selling point for any new project. > It tells me, this is a technology-first, users-second enthusiast project. > And thus, I'll be surprised if it tackles the deepest issues users need solved. Some of the deepest issues that users need solved are ones that Rust was designed to solve at the language and compiler level. 1. System st…

Ironically, perhaps Rust in this sense should be compared to Basalt -- as in the projected longevity difference between Basalt-rebar and iron-rebar.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to sabotage Linux, Linux developers and the community does that all by itself (unwittingly).

I have your response covered under "some think it never will" :) I agree a lot of mistakes have been made but I'm not sure Linux developers/community will continue to make big enough mistakes to stop its momentum every time it gains some.

I'm optimistic and I hope that it does. I use Linux exclusively.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have your response covered under "some think it never will" :) I agree a lot of mistakes have been made but I'm not sure Linux developers/community will continue to make big enough mistakes to stop its momentum every time it gains some.

I'm optimistic and I hope that it does. I use Linux exclusively.

Awesome. Sorry for assuming that you meant this will always be the case.

I'm not sure all sabotage it unwittingly. I think there might be some deliberate sabotage in Mozilla which gets funded by Google. A browser is a key component of a Linux desktop. I don't think we should pin our hopes entirely on Firefox, but explore all options.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would love it if there was a shameless clone of the MacOS DE for Linux. Elementary OS

It's a great approximation, but I haven't had a lot of success using Elementary. The best experience I have had so far is Gnome41 on Debian Bookworm (my current setup which I log into about once a week) - though the DE has some design choices that cater more to mobile desktop environments at the expense of desktop usability (I don't want to appear ungrateful towards the volunteers developing it, it's a great project…

I honestly can’t use another DE after using OS X.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#200
post #158
post #64

I know that open source and Linux in general don't need/want another DE, but selfishly... I really want System76 to succeed. They give me the same kind of feeling I had when Apple was kicking butt in the early 2000s. And I think that for them to become a general-audience company, they need to really own more of their software. They have some great ideas, and they've already plugin'ed Gnome to within and inch of it's…

> I know that open source and Linux in general don't need/want another DE Unpopular opinion, but more DEs is fine and good, especially if they will have teams that are either (a) large or (b) well-funded. Plasma and GNOME are very good, and Unity was actually great to use in its heyday. Imo what we don't really need more of are the conservative, under-resourced 'classic look and feel' DEs like most of the minor playe…

> more DEs is fine and good, especially if they will have teams that are either (a) large or (b) well-funded.

Or if they're interoperable. For instance, icewm doesn't have a screensaver of its own, but it just uses xscreensaver so it's fine.

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